rfenst
  • rfenst
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:16:00 AM
S/BOTL,

Anyone know anything about this kind of crap:

Assume: Free-standing, non-hospital, outpatient surgical facility. Patient undergoes one single 57 minute arthroscopic knee surgery session consisting of: 1)left medial meniscectomy; and 2)left chondroplasty. No health insurance at all- patient to pay out of pocket himself.

Can the surgical facility bill for two separate procedures on one knee, both done in one 57 minute surgical session, on the same day (as opposed to different days), as shown below?

CPT CODE DIAGNOSIS FEE

29981 836.0 $10,991

29877 717.7 $10,991

TOTAL $21,982

rfenst
  • rfenst
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:17:00 AM
Well, it didn't come out as typed...

robertfenster at fensterlaw.com

Chilly9321
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:29:00 AM
Robert-

I'd have to do a bit of digging around, but I'll see if I can find some stuff for you. Might not be before Christmas though.

rfenst
  • rfenst
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:39:00 AM
Chilly,

I have already spent quite some time on the Internet looking it up, but didn't get a clear-cut answer or much help. Please don't bother. I am just trying to get an opinion before spending my client's money on a credible expert's report ($500-$1,000). Someone here must do this stuff or know it very well as part of the way they earn a living...

Chilly9321
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:40:00 AM
^ EMS
Chilly9321
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:55:00 AM
Oops, I bothered before I saw that. Good luck. Clear answers on CPTs can be very hard to find unless MediCare is invovled, and then only because they tell you what they are paying.
jojoc
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:09:00 PM
and people gripe about bills from attorney's. Wish I could get away with that kind of double billing.

BTW, Robert, are you billing your CBID surf time as "research"? LOL - j/k

jpotts
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:31:00 PM
1. Author: rfenst Date: 12/22/2009 04:16 PM Reply

S/BOTL,

Anyone know anything about this kind of crap:

Assume: Free-standing, non-hospital, outpatient surgical facility. Patient undergoes one single 57 minute arthroscopic knee surgery session consisting of: 1)left medial meniscectomy; and 2)left chondroplasty. No health insurance at all- patient to pay out of pocket himself.

Can the surgical facility bill for two separate procedures on one knee, both done in one 57 minute surgical session, on the same day (as opposed to different days), as shown below?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure exactly about the laws in Florida, but if you are self-paying, the hospital can bill you whatever they deem appropriate.

With an insurance company, they will bill the maximum amount they can to the insurance company, in one form or another. In the end, however, the hospital gets paid.

My suggestion to you is if you are paying out-of-pocket for medical procedures, discuss a payment plan with the hospital's billing department. They may even knock-off a portion of the bill based on the fact that they have virtually no overhead when dealing with insurance companies.

Another thing to look for is anestesia costs, and see how much is rolled into each procedure. If they bill you twice for the same anestesia costs, you can dispute this. However, I seriously doubt this is the case.

00camper
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:13:00 PM
My bride is a certified coder and billing specialist. I will report shortly.
00camper
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:21:00 PM
Hi I'm Bride!

Are you sure about the first code being 29981? I believe that maybe it should be 29881. Also, what state are you in?

jojoc
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:23:00 PM
he is in FL.
wtjvj
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:26:00 PM
Fenster is in Florida. For now lets assume the code is 29881...

whats the verdict?

Thunder.Gerbil
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:30:00 PM
^

You know how when you take your car to an auto mechanic to have the timing belt changed, but then you also decide to replace the water pump?

Ever notice how they usually charge you for R&R of the timing belt as part of the water pump service?

How does that saying go about why dogs lick their balls? Because they can.

Yeah...

00camper
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:33:00 PM
Bride again!

According to the National Correct Coding Initiatives these codes are not allowed, at any time, to be billed together. The Chondroplasty (29877) is part and partial of the Meniscectomy (29881). Meaning, if they are already in there to do the meniscectomy they do not have to create another access to do the chondroplasty.

Diagnosis codes: 836.1 Current tear of the lateral meniscus.

717.7 Chondomalacia. (Abnormal softening of the cartilage under the kneecap.)

If you have other questions let me know.

akb, CHCA, CHC, CCS-P, PCS

00camper
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:37:00 PM
Might be interesting to look at the patient's chart and see if there has been any mention of the chondromalacia before the procedure?????

Just sayin!

jojoc
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:38:00 PM
Bride -- I just sent an e-mail to Robert for him to check this thread. I am sure he would appreciate it if you stuck around for a few in case he as some additional questions.

One I can think of that he might have is do you have a link to the National Correct Coding Initiatives that show those two billing codes should not be used together.

wtjvj
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:38:00 PM
good info.
Thunder.Gerbil
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:39:00 PM
Can Bride straighten out CA-BAR next?
Thunder.Gerbil
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:39:00 PM
Bill, was it your knee?
wtjvj
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:41:00 PM
nope, my knees are OK