MACS
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Friday, May 21, 2010 6:23:00 PM
Look it up, folks...

Turns out CA has the SAME law, already on the books, that they are so "up in arms" about Arizona enforcing.

Can you say Hypocrites? I knew you could.

edsbar60
Friday, May 21, 2010 6:28:00 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
donutboy2000
Friday, May 21, 2010 6:31:00 PM
Kalifornia is not enforcing the law.
pacman357
Friday, May 21, 2010 8:02:00 PM
Huh huh...you said "penal", huh huh.

I mean...well, I've seen summaries of the AZ law, but haven't had the time to read it. I did read the CA law you cited, however, and it does appear to fairly closely mirror at least the heart of the AZ law, albeit without some of the more insistent sections and protections cited under the AZ law (such as forcing cops to follow it, so they don't make a policy in any county or city to ignore it).

MACS
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Friday, May 21, 2010 8:16:00 PM
Exactly. CA does not enforce it, but there it is.

They need to START enforcing it.

pacman357
Friday, May 21, 2010 8:23:00 PM
It's not, from what I understand of the AZ law, an exact duplicate. However, from what I have read of the AZ law, the core principle appears to be the same.

However, to do a more thorough analysis, I'd have to read the text of the AZ law, then look to see if there had been any susbequent legislative or court action in CA to alter or shut down the CA law. At the surface, with the little time I had available, it does appear to be remarkably similar in the basic "do ask, do tell" provision, if I may borrow and alter a phrase there.

Funny how these things some times get passed during different political eras and somehow forgotten. "YOU CAN'T DO THAT, WE WILL BOYCOTT YOU...huh? We did what? You're kidding! When the hell did WE do that?"

I once got a case dismissed where, almost by happenstance, I was just doing some old-fashioned reserarch and stumbled across a statute that made it illegal to steal a dog. There's a lot more to the story and analysis, but bottom line is, the state had charged the client with a more serious, and more general theft charge which carried a steeper penalty. Prosecutor wasn't smart enough to simply amend the charge, I established an equal protection violation of the law, and the client walked. Who the hell would make a separate statute for stealing dogs? Didn't cover any other animals, either. Just dogs. Without it, stealing a dog would have still been theft.

Some times the laws present some odd quandries, while others get passed, the initial excitement is over, and all is forgotten...for a while.

ScottHar
Friday, May 21, 2010 10:05:00 PM
^Interesting... Are you obliged to do EVERYTHING to get a "not guilty" verdict for your client? In other words, if you knew the dude was guilty as hell, could you have overlooked that technicality and allowed the "appropriate" verdict to happen?

Seems like an ethical minefield at times...

ScottHar

MACS
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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:14:00 PM
SCOTTIE!!!

(sorry... you happen to have the same name as my son and brother.. force of habit)

ScottHar
Friday, May 21, 2010 10:24:00 PM
^Wussup, man?!

I just cleaned up my 4-year-old's vomit! It's just become a partyin' kinda Friday night. (There goes the weekend...)

ScottHar

MACS
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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:52:00 PM
Snap out of it, Nancy! Have a glass of scotch and a ceegar and rejoice the fact you sired a healthy young man that you can teach how to make fart noises!
pacman357
Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:31:00 AM
#7 I can give a couple of general statements as to what I see the job being about, but every case and every client is different.

Overall, I see the job of a criminal defense attorney as getting the best result you can for the client, given the applicable law, the court rules, the rules of ethics and the facts of the case. What the "best result" may be in any given case can be viewed through a number of prisms.

Basically I keep pushing until I think we have the best deal we can get or we have a deal the client can live with (and I don't think it's a crappy offer, although the client can accept what I think is a crappy offer...doesn't happen often, as I've been doing this for a while).

My view of trial is I have one job. Win. Again, within the constraints of the law, facts, etc. Client makes the call on whether to accept a deal or not (if not, or he/she cannot decide, trial is required), as well as whether to testify or not. I give my input on the case and those issues, and I also include the clients on what I think are important issues, but those two are solely the clients' rights and must be respected. I've had some that rejected my advice on one or both issues, usually with predictable results--but not always. As I tell clients, if we already knew how a trial would turn out, we'd never try any cases (and I had already hit 100 trials before I turned 40).

A win at trial can also mean different thing. Obviously, not guilty verdicts on all counts is the first that most folks know. However, a conviction on a less serious offense (say a manslaughter when the original charge was Murder 1) can also be a hell of a good result, and usually considered a win for the defense. If a client has 9 felony charges and one minor misdemeanor beef and beats everything but the misdemeanor (which carries little or no punishment compared to the felonies), you're usually going to have a very happy client, too.

I don't want to start telling war stories, so I'll give just a thumbnail sketch...client gets caught with 220 rocks of crack. Still the most I've ever seen in a state-level case. Two large fist-sized bags. Prosecution and cops assume they have him nailed on possession with intent, either miss some important issues or get lazy, not sure which. Client has what I call the priors buffet--just about one of everything for convictions. State law at the time (not sure if this is still true) says just having a large amount of drugs doesn't prove possession. Prosecutor couldn't even believe we were going to trial...another attorney had the case before me, client has been in jail a few months already. We waive jury, argue the law, prosecution even manages to enter my client's own statement to cops that he was stockpiling for personal use, and I don't have to put client on the stand.

Original charge, poss w/ intent to deliver, client looking at about 8.5-9.5 years.

Convicted only on a lesser straight possession, 16 months, and with time served and good time, the client would have about another 3-4 months and be out for Christmas.

Do I worry if they are guilty? I can't. Not supposed to. You can't be a criminal defense attorney and do the job properly if you temper your effort based on whether you believe the client is innocent, has lived a good life, is a good dad/mom, etc. Sure, some times you get cases--some times very serious cases--where you realize...holy ****, this client might really be innocent. Those keep me awake at night. I already hate losing trial, but losing any case with a client who appears to be innocent, and especially with serious charges, THAT, I am here to tell you, is some serious, serious pressure.

However, the reason you have to give everyone your best effort is that there is no one else there to guard their rights and advocate on their behalf. You are it, dude. And if you start slacking off because you think you have a guilty client, then the system has failed because YOU have failed.

In a way, it's a bit like the checks and balances in our form of government. If one part doesn't check another, the whole thing becomes wortthless. In my profession, innocent people who only appear to be guilty go to jail, lose a job, house, kids, and who knows what all else.

That's the good news and bad news of my profession. What we do matters, and it matters a lot. If you **** it up, even if the case is sent back after an appeal, the client may have already spent 2-3 years in prison and lost a lot of his/her life's work and trappings.

My clients get my best effort to get them the best result I can. I also pay as much as I can to get the best attorneys and staff that I can (as opposed to being cheap and taking home a lot more money, which would be REALLY easy to do these days--lots of lawyers out of work around here). I may not always have my "A game" when I'm in trial, but they will always get the best effort I can muster each and every day of trial.

Do I lose any sleep if a guilty client goes free? Nope. It's not my job to put people in jail. It's my job to make sure I make it tough for the prosecution, which has WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more resources than we do, to put my client in jail.

When you get one that appears to be innocent, and you get them acquitted at trial, it just doesn't get any better than that. When you have one that you have one that even might be innocent that gets convicted, it sucks like you wouldn't believe.

So, some day if someone is wondering just how the F I got as insane as I am, now you know. 100+ trial, thousands of cases, over 20 years and counting, and it's like being on a roller coaster damned near every week of it.

BTW, I've had some cross-exams on witnesses and some closing arguments that went so well, that by the time I finish, I need some water, as I'll be parched--and my hands will be shaking as I try to pour the water, because my adrenaline level has just shot up to 11 on the amp.

wheelrite
Saturday, May 22, 2010 5:40:00 AM
Penal Code ?

Does that mean you have License your ****** ?

and where does the decal go ?

wheel,