For those who don't want to wallow through the nonsense in the previous post on this subject:

Any thoughts on the Toledo riots?

From what I can tell, a Nazi group wanted to march in a predominantly black neighborhood. The town wisely said "no" to a permit, but admitted that they could not prevent them from walking down the sidewalk like any other citizen.

They showed up ever so briefly, went home, and let the local gangs burn, pilage, and loot the area.

It was 100% according to their plan.

The sadest part? Mothers took their children with them to witness everything.

And let's be honest, these mothers KNEW these were gangs, and by definition they tend to carry weapons. How on earth could they do that?

I saw numerous interviews with the mayor of Toledo. He's a very well spoken man who is trying to do the best he can with the hand that is dealt to him.

Like so many, things like this are out of control because the LAW would not allow for anyone to prevent the racist Nazi thugs from marching.

And then the law became powerless as the neighborhood fell to the gangs.

Such a sad day, with so many victims and so many guilty. And some who were both.

... As if every opinion / angle was not covered in the previous 99 posts. Ya, that makes sense.

"Like so many, things like this are out of control because the LAW would not allow for anyone to prevent the racist Nazi thugs from marching."

=============================================

Like I said on the other thread, I wouldn't want them in front of my house....but the 1st Amd. lets a lot of stuff go on that I don't like. Too bad for me when I don't like it.

I like Larry Flynt's quote when he was going through censorship issues back in the day. He said, "If the 1st Amendment can't protect someone like me, it can't protect anyone."

I think that's a pretty damn good statement, even though I hate the fact that it is often true.

I spoke with a business acquaintance who has lived in Toledo all of his life. He said that Toledo had never had any racial issues before this event.

He stated that to his knowedge, and that of others, no whites asked this outside group to intervene on their behalf. The neighborhood where this all occurred was an older one, predominantly Polish in ancestry, and clean as a whistle. More blacks have moved into the area over the past 5 to 10 years, but there were no obvious problems.

He told me that in addition to the original Nazi group there were other affiliated agents that worked their way into the youth groups and gangs and really stirred them up. They were told that even after the rally was done, some of the Nazi members were going to stay around and knock off a few of their targets to make an example. They were also told (falsely)that some within the Toledo police department knew this and were going to allow it to happen.

You can see the kind of mess this will create. This scene can be repeated all across this country with the same kind of results.

I am keeping my comments on the other thread quiet for now. I have good reason to do this. At this time I will not add to the insanity already exhibited there.

Wagner

The mayor sounds legit, what's a guy to do? I used to live in a city that had frequent protests. If the group went ahead without a permit the cops would throw them in paddy wagons, take them downtown and cite them however. No permit no marchie. Given the incendiary intentions of these Hitler wannabees in indian country, I fail to see why the local law enforcers didn't cart their sorry Arian a**es away to avert an imminent conflict. The obvious tragedy I see is that one of the indians didn't manage to plant one of their projectiles about 4 inches into a few of the losers' faces. I live in a nice family neighborhood, you can barely walk through all the American flags on the 4th of July, but I'm sure I could find a new use for the shovel handle in the tool shed if Nazis came goose-stepping down my sidewalk. I know the old WWII vets up the block who fought the low-lifes the first time would take my back too.

Although it's true that the "letter of the law" must be followed, we all know that the 1st Amendment was never intended to allow such hatred and bigotry.

And since anyone with over a second graders mentality would know with absolute certainty that such a riot would be likely (not simply "possible"), then isn't it the towns duty to prevent it from happening in the first place?

These Nazi fools can be heard loud and clear from their own front yards, without invoking a riot with disasterous effects.

It's too bad that the leaders within that community could not band together and denounce the bigots without such violence.

Again, this was all according to the plan by the original marchers.

After they lit the match, they went home and watched the town burn over a beer and pretzels.

The first amendment should not be the excuse to allow such vile behavior. Squelching the protests of hatred does not do a disservice to our country.

I believe it was Oliver Wendel Holmes who legally proscribed yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Some real good information can be found on the riots here...

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051017/NEWS16/51017001 

It's the website for the Toledo's newpaper The Blade.

The city itself has been in economic decline for the last 10-15 years. The older neighborhoods in the Northside of town are mainly Polish and Central European, with a smaller African American contingent. Where most of this happened is mainly elderly and lower middle class area that is in decline.

Race relations haven't been great there (per my Uncle, he's a cop there) but it isn't awful either.

The 1st Amendment sure is a doubled edged sword. Whatever governments decide to do is fine with me (ban everyone or allow everyone) but it has to be consistant either way.

OK, My 2 Cents worth....

I am a VET myself, and like or hate it this is what we fight to Preserve "FREEDOM of SPEACH"!.. Wether you agree or Dis-Agree with what someone has to say, they got the right to do it.. Rioting is NOT part of this!.. Same with the NOISE in Naw-linz, Riots and looting arent the thing to do. But you have to take into account the Mentality of the Normal Person who might never have seen Military Duty, or maybe seen a Rambo movie.. Morals are whats at question here, Common Morals!.. Ok, I'm going back to 40 Meter, going to Fire a Rocky Patel Vintage up, and Forget the World and all it's troubles. I've DONE my Time trying to fix it..

Anyone else on HF right now?..

...HF?

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051017/NEWS16/51017001 

Very Interesting Read.. Non of the Marchers were arrested, but 114 people were.. OK, Heres the Question, NON of the Marchers in this paper were sited for Rioting.. What should we do with the People that

Were rioting?... Is it Justifiable to Riot for some reason?. It is Justified to Burn the Guys (Looks like a Family Owned/Opp) Bar down?.. Guess I'm saying When does the LAW of the Land work, and not Survival of the Fitest?.. I"m a Ham Radio Opp. and I try to keep to myself here in My little Chunk of the World. I talk to people all over the World, and it just seems EVERYONE has a "Opinion" of us here in the US, then something like this **** shows all over the World!.. I Even heard there was a story on Deutsche Welle about it!..

DAMN SHAME the rest of the world see us like this!..

Ham Radio Operators....

http://www.arrl.org/ 

"Play Radio with lot's of Power as "Life's too Short for QRP"..

Been Licensed for about 20 Years now.. Great Hobby, and like in the Gulf Coast, when all the Telephones and Cell's are out, Who you going to call on!.. The Hams have been in the Area and running since 5 FULL days before the Storm even got close.. We also provide messaging for Soldiers all over the world, along with a lot of other NOT so fun Stuff.. BIGGEST thing, Some of us Smoke Cigars!.. And NOW have a place to maybe get some!.. HA!.. I'm going to get me the Wall Humi that I saw in the Picture Post, and Fill that Monster, Have food and BEER (Can I say BEER, Cervesa, Bier)sent in, and NEVER Leave my little FORTRESS!... Listen to Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, SRV... See I've lost it now..

^

well thats a great goal to be sure...

Freedom of Speech is one of our most important freedoms.

But where does it stop?

If I knew how to build a simple bomb, can I stand on the corner and describe the details?

At what point does hatred become the equivalent of pornography? I can't yell obscenities in a schoolyard, so why should I be able to wave a KKK banner in a black neighborhood?

I hate the rioters. But I also hate the nazi group that invoked it.

My first amendment was never intended to protect those hateful bastards. Ever.

I hate the rioters, too . . . but what are you trying to envoke here tailgater, mind control? Just curious . . .

Yes.

Just kidding.

The Klan, er Nazi's, er group of upstanding citizens applied for a permit to march. They were denied, but were obviously allowed to "walk down the sidewalk like any other citizens".

In this particular instance, the town did the right thing, but the results were disasterous.

In other cases, these type of clowns are allowed much more. They are allowed to gather in large numbers. To usurp governmental time, effort and money to keep the peace while they spew filth from their vile mouths.

They don't chant their hate mongering to convince their fellow citizens. They do it to invoke violence amongst those they hate.

Why do our laws protect such actions when they are so blatant? This is the proverbial "yelling fire in a crowded theater". Common sense must be embraced.

"Freedom" was never intended to protect this type of hatred. Nor the type of actions that other vile groups engage in such as the NAMBLA scum who rape innocent young boys.

NEVER was the first amendment intended to protect this type of action.

True, we can not control what these low lifes think and feel. But we can control thier actions. And preventing them from assembling to gain a sense of normalcy is a good first step.

Tailgater.....you've got it going on. I mean that. I am grateful for your comments.

Tailgater:

Right on! You are a wise man. Thank you for your comments. It is good to know that sane people can reside here!

Wagner

I agree.

Wasn't it Forrest, Forrest Gump who said, "Stupid is as stupid does"?

Joe/Tailgater

You are 100% right. We should not allow any whacko, sick and obviously ill indended group to gather regardless of the freedoms! Just the set up here was bad.....these sickos are against humanity and freedoms as well as having a f---ed up view of life in general! It will happen again, and it will get the same kind of news coverage, and that is what they want....too bad we cannot just shoot the bastards!

Charlie