FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago
Some selected paragraphs, please read the entire piece before you start saying it is sh*t. There are lots of links there. -- indicates where I cut and pasted. Link is provided below for the full piece.

The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science

"A MAN WITH A CONVICTION is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point." So wrote the celebrated Stanford University psychologist Leon Festinger (PDF), in a passage that might have been referring to climate change denial—the persistent rejection, on the part of so many Americans today, of what we know about global warming and its human causes. But it was too early for that—this was the 1950s—and Festinger was actually describing a famous case study in psychology.

--

But while Martin's space cult might lie at on the far end of the spectrum of human self-delusion, there's plenty to go around. And since Festinger's day, an array of new discoveries in psychology and neuroscience has further demonstrated how our preexisting beliefs, far more than any new facts, can skew our thoughts and even color what we consider our most dispassionate and logical conclusions. This tendency toward so-called "motivated reasoning" helps explain why we find groups so polarized over matters where the evidence is so unequivocal: climate change, vaccines, "death panels," the birthplace and religion of the president (PDF), and much else. It would seem that expecting people to be convinced by the facts flies in the face of, you know, the facts.

The theory of motivated reasoning builds on a key insight of modern neuroscience (PDF): Reasoning is actually suffused with emotion (or what researchers often call "affect"). Not only are the two inseparable, but our positive or negative feelings about people, things, and ideas arise much more rapidly than our conscious thoughts, in a matter of milliseconds—fast enough to detect with an EEG device, but long before we're aware of it. That shouldn't be surprising: Evolution required us to react very quickly to stimuli in our environment. It's a "basic human survival skill," explains political scientist Arthur Lupia of the University of Michigan. We push threatening information away; we pull friendly information close. We apply fight-or-flight reflexes not only to predators, but to data itself.

We're not driven only by emotions, of course—we also reason, deliberate. But reasoning comes later, works slower—and even then, it doesn't take place in an emotional vacuum. Rather, our quick-fire emotions can set us on a course of thinking that's highly biased, especially on topics we care a great deal about.

Consider a person who has heard about a scientific discovery that deeply challenges her belief in divine creation—a new hominid, say, that confirms our evolutionary origins. What happens next, explains political scientist Charles Taber of Stony Brook University, is a subconscious negative response to the new information—and that response, in turn, guides the type of memories and associations formed in the conscious mind. "They retrieve thoughts that are consistent with their previous beliefs," says Taber, "and that will lead them to build an argument and challenge what they're hearing."

In other words, when we think we're reasoning, we may instead be rationalizing. Or to use an analogy offered by University of Virginia psychologist Jonathan Haidt: We may think we're being scientists, but we're actually being lawyers (PDF). Our "reasoning" is a means to a predetermined end—winning our "case"—and is shot through with biases.

--

That's a lot of jargon, but we all understand these mechanisms when it comes to interpersonal relationships. If I don't want to believe that my spouse is being unfaithful, or that my child is a bully, I can go to great lengths to explain away behavior that seems obvious to everybody else—everybody who isn't too emotionally invested to accept it, anyway. That's not to suggest that we aren't also motivated to perceive the world accurately—we are. Or that we never change our minds—we do. It's just that we have other important goals besides accuracy—including identity affirmation and protecting one's sense of self—and often those make us highly resistant to changing our beliefs when the facts say we should.

Modern science originated from an attempt to weed out such subjective lapses—what that great 17th century theorist of the scientific method, Francis Bacon, dubbed the "idols of the mind." Even if individual researchers are prone to falling in love with their own theories, the broader processes of peer review and institutionalized skepticism are designed to ensure that, eventually, the best ideas prevail.

Our individual responses to the conclusions that science reaches, however, are quite another matter. Ironically, in part because researchers employ so much nuance and strive to disclose all remaining sources of uncertainty, scientific evidence is highly susceptible to selective reading and misinterpretation. Giving ideologues or partisans scientific data that's relevant to their beliefs is like unleashing them in the motivated-reasoning equivalent of a candy store.

Sure enough, a large number of psychological studies have shown that people respond to scientific or technical evidence in ways that justify their preexisting beliefs. In a classic 1979 experiment (PDF), pro- and anti-death penalty advocates were exposed to descriptions of twofake scientific studies: one supporting and one undermining the notion that capital punishment deters violent crime and, in particular, murder. They were also shown detailed methodological critiques of the fake studies—and in a scientific sense, neither study was stronger than the other. Yet in each case, advocates more heavily criticized the study whose conclusions disagreed with their own, while describing the study that was more ideologically congenial as more "convincing."

Since then, similar results have been found for how people respond to "evidence" about affirmative action, gun control, the accuracy of gay stereotypes, and much else. Even when study subjects are explicitly instructed to be unbiased and even-handed about the evidence, they often fail.

fake scientific studies: one supporting and one undermining the notion that capital punishment deters violent crime and, in particular, murder. They were also shown detailed methodological critiques of the fake studies—and in a scientific sense, neither study was stronger than the other. Yet in each case, advocates more heavily criticized the study whose conclusions disagreed with their own, while describing the study that was more ideologically congenial as more "convincing."

Since then, similar results have been found for how people respond to "evidence" about affirmative action, gun control, the accuracy of gay stereotypes, and much else. Even when study subjects are explicitly instructed to be unbiased and even-handed about the evidence, they often fail.

In Kahan's research (PDF), individuals are classified, based on their cultural values, as either "individualists" or "communitarians," and as either "hierarchical" or "egalitarian" in outlook. (Somewhat oversimplifying, you can think of hierarchical individualists as akin to conservative Republicans, and egalitarian communitarians as liberal Democrats.) In one study, subjects in the different groups were asked to help a close friend determine the risks associated with climate change, sequestering nuclear waste, or concealed carry laws: "The friend tells you that he or she is planning to read a book about the issue but would like to get your opinion on whether the author seems like a knowledgeable and trustworthy expert." A subject was then presented with the résumé of a fake expert "depicted as a member of the National Academy of Sciences who had earned a Ph.D. in a pertinent field from one elite university and who was now on the faculty of another." The subject was then shown a book excerpt by that "expert," in which the risk of the issue at hand was portrayed as high or low, well-founded or speculative. The results were stark: When the scientist's position stated that global warming is real and human-caused, for instance, only 23 percent of hierarchical individualists agreed the person was a "trustworthy and knowledgeable expert." Yet 88 percent of egalitarian communitarians accepted the same scientist's expertise. Similar divides were observed on whether nuclear waste can be safely stored underground and whether letting people carry guns deters crime. (The alliances did not always hold. In another study (PDF), hierarchs and communitarians were in favor of laws that would compel the mentally ill to accept treatment, whereas individualists and egalitarians were opposed.)

In other words, people rejected the validity of a scientific source because its conclusion contradicted their deeply held views—and thus the relative risks inherent in each scenario. A hierarchal individualist finds it difficult to believe that the things he prizes (commerce, industry, a man's freedom to possess a gun to defend his family) (PDF) could lead to outcomes deleterious to society. Whereas egalitarian communitarians tend to think that the free market causes harm, that patriarchal families mess up kids, and that people can't handle their guns. The study subjects weren't "anti-science"—not in their own minds, anyway. It's just that "science" was whatever they wanted it to be. "We've come to a misadventure, a bad situation where diverse citizens, who rely on diverse systems of cultural certification, are in conflict," says Kahan.

And that undercuts the standard notion that the way to persuade people is via evidence and argument. In fact, head-on attempts to persuade can sometimes trigger a backfire effect, where people not only fail to change their minds when confronted with the facts—they may hold their wrong views more tenaciously than ever.

Take, for instance, the question of whether Saddam Hussein possessed hidden weapons of mass destruction just before the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. When political scientists Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler showed subjects fake newspaper articles (PDF) in which this was first suggested (in a 2004 quote from President Bush) and then refuted (with the findings of the Bush-commissioned Iraq Survey Group report, which found no evidence of active WMD programs in pre-invasion Iraq), they found that conservatives were more likely than before to believe the claim. (The researchers also tested how liberals responded when shown that Bush did not actually "ban" embryonic stem-cell research. Liberals weren't particularly amenable to persuasion, either, but no backfire effect was observed.)

--

So is there a case study of science denial that largely occupies the political left? Yes: the claim that childhood vaccines are causing an epidemic of autism. Its most famous proponents are an environmentalist (Robert F. Kennedy Jr.) and numerous Hollywood celebrities (most notably Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey). The Huffington Post gives a very large megaphone to denialists. And Seth Mnookin, author of the new book The Panic Virus, notes that if you want to find vaccine deniers, all you need to do is go hang out at Whole Foods.

Vaccine denial has all the hallmarks of a belief system that's not amenable to refutation. Over the past decade, the assertion that childhood vaccines are driving autism rates has been undermined by multiple epidemiological studies—as well as the simple fact that autism rates continue to rise, even though the alleged offending agent in vaccines (a mercury-based preservative called thimerosal) has long since been removed.

Yet the true believers persist—critiquing each new study that challenges their views, and even rallying to the defense of vaccine-autism researcher Andrew Wakefield, after his 1998 Lancet paper—which originated the current vaccine scare—was retracted and he subsequently lost his license (PDF) to practice medicine. But then, why should we be surprised? Vaccine deniers created their own partisan media, such as the website Age of Autism, that instantly blast out critiques and counterarguments whenever any new development casts further doubt on anti-vaccine views.

It all raises the question: Do left and right differ in any meaningful way when it comes to biases in processing information, or are we all equally susceptible?

There are some clear differences. Science denial today is considerably more prominent on the political right—once you survey climate and related environmental issues, anti-evolutionism, attacks on reproductive health science by the Christian right, and stem-cell and biomedical matters. More tellingly, anti-vaccine positions are virtually nonexistent among Democratic officeholders today—whereas anti-climate-science views are becoming monolithic among Republican elected officials.

Some researchers have suggested that there are psychological differences between the left and the right that might impact responses to new information—that conservatives are more rigid and authoritarian, and liberals more tolerant of ambiguity. Psychologist John Jost of New York University has further argued that conservatives are "system justifiers": They engage in motivated reasoning to defend the status quo.

The upshot: All we can currently bank on is the fact that we all have blinders in some situations. The question then becomes: What can be done to counteract human nature itself?

Given the power of our prior beliefs to skew how we respond to new information, one thing is becoming clear: If you want someone to accept new evidence, make sure to present it to them in a context that doesn't trigger a defensive, emotional reaction. (I guess I haven't learned how to do that)

Much more, believe it or not at:

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney 
wheelrite
15 years ago
I'm motivated by a nice pair of GINORMOUS Teats,,,,
Kawak
15 years ago

Some selected paragraphs, please read the entire piece before you start saying it is sh*t. There are lots of links there. -- indicates where I cut and pasted. Link is provided below for the full piece.

The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science

"A MAN WITH A CONVICTION is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point." So wrote the celebrated Stanford University psychologist Leon Festinger (PDF), in a passage that might have been referring to climate change denial—the persistent rejection, on the part of so many Americans today, of what we know about global warming and its human causes. But it was too early for that—this was the 1950s—and Festinger was actually describing a famous case study in psychology.

--

But while Martin's space cult might lie at on the far end of the spectrum of human self-delusion, there's plenty to go around. And since Festinger's day, an array of new discoveries in psychology and neuroscience has further demonstrated how our preexisting beliefs, far more than any new facts, can skew our thoughts and even color what we consider our most dispassionate and logical conclusions. This tendency toward so-called "motivated reasoning" helps explain why we find groups so polarized over matters where the evidence is so unequivocal: climate change, vaccines, "death panels," the birthplace and religion of the president (PDF), and much else. It would seem that expecting people to be convinced by the facts flies in the face of, you know, the facts.

The theory of motivated reasoning builds on a key insight of modern neuroscience (PDF): Reasoning is actually suffused with emotion (or what researchers often call "affect"). Not only are the two inseparable, but our positive or negative feelings about people, things, and ideas arise much more rapidly than our conscious thoughts, in a matter of milliseconds—fast enough to detect with an EEG device, but long before we're aware of it. That shouldn't be surprising: Evolution required us to react very quickly to stimuli in our environment. It's a "basic human survival skill," explains political scientist Arthur Lupia of the University of Michigan. We push threatening information away; we pull friendly information close. We apply fight-or-flight reflexes not only to predators, but to data itself.

We're not driven only by emotions, of course—we also reason, deliberate. But reasoning comes later, works slower—and even then, it doesn't take place in an emotional vacuum. Rather, our quick-fire emotions can set us on a course of thinking that's highly biased, especially on topics we care a great deal about.

Consider a person who has heard about a scientific discovery that deeply challenges her belief in divine creation—a new hominid, say, that confirms our evolutionary origins. What happens next, explains political scientist Charles Taber of Stony Brook University, is a subconscious negative response to the new information—and that response, in turn, guides the type of memories and associations formed in the conscious mind. "They retrieve thoughts that are consistent with their previous beliefs," says Taber, "and that will lead them to build an argument and challenge what they're hearing."

In other words, when we think we're reasoning, we may instead be rationalizing. Or to use an analogy offered by University of Virginia psychologist Jonathan Haidt: We may think we're being scientists, but we're actually being lawyers (PDF). Our "reasoning" is a means to a predetermined end—winning our "case"—and is shot through with biases.

--

That's a lot of jargon, but we all understand these mechanisms when it comes to interpersonal relationships. If I don't want to believe that my spouse is being unfaithful, or that my child is a bully, I can go to great lengths to explain away behavior that seems obvious to everybody else—everybody who isn't too emotionally invested to accept it, anyway. That's not to suggest that we aren't also motivated to perceive the world accurately—we are. Or that we never change our minds—we do. It's just that we have other important goals besides accuracy—including identity affirmation and protecting one's sense of self—and often those make us highly resistant to changing our beliefs when the facts say we should.

Modern science originated from an attempt to weed out such subjective lapses—what that great 17th century theorist of the scientific method, Francis Bacon, dubbed the "idols of the mind." Even if individual researchers are prone to falling in love with their own theories, the broader processes of peer review and institutionalized skepticism are designed to ensure that, eventually, the best ideas prevail.

Our individual responses to the conclusions that science reaches, however, are quite another matter. Ironically, in part because researchers employ so much nuance and strive to disclose all remaining sources of uncertainty, scientific evidence is highly susceptible to selective reading and misinterpretation. Giving ideologues or partisans scientific data that's relevant to their beliefs is like unleashing them in the motivated-reasoning equivalent of a candy store.

Sure enough, a large number of psychological studies have shown that people respond to scientific or technical evidence in ways that justify their preexisting beliefs. In a classic 1979 experiment (PDF), pro- and anti-death penalty advocates were exposed to descriptions of twofake scientific studies: one supporting and one undermining the notion that capital punishment deters violent crime and, in particular, murder. They were also shown detailed methodological critiques of the fake studies—and in a scientific sense, neither study was stronger than the other. Yet in each case, advocates more heavily criticized the study whose conclusions disagreed with their own, while describing the study that was more ideologically congenial as more "convincing."

Since then, similar results have been found for how people respond to "evidence" about affirmative action, gun control, the accuracy of gay stereotypes, and much else. Even when study subjects are explicitly instructed to be unbiased and even-handed about the evidence, they often fail.

fake scientific studies: one supporting and one undermining the notion that capital punishment deters violent crime and, in particular, murder. They were also shown detailed methodological critiques of the fake studies—and in a scientific sense, neither study was stronger than the other. Yet in each case, advocates more heavily criticized the study whose conclusions disagreed with their own, while describing the study that was more ideologically congenial as more "convincing."

Since then, similar results have been found for how people respond to "evidence" about affirmative action, gun control, the accuracy of gay stereotypes, and much else. Even when study subjects are explicitly instructed to be unbiased and even-handed about the evidence, they often fail.

In Kahan's research (PDF), individuals are classified, based on their cultural values, as either "individualists" or "communitarians," and as either "hierarchical" or "egalitarian" in outlook. (Somewhat oversimplifying, you can think of hierarchical individualists as akin to conservative Republicans, and egalitarian communitarians as liberal Democrats.) In one study, subjects in the different groups were asked to help a close friend determine the risks associated with climate change, sequestering nuclear waste, or concealed carry laws: "The friend tells you that he or she is planning to read a book about the issue but would like to get your opinion on whether the author seems like a knowledgeable and trustworthy expert." A subject was then presented with the résumé of a fake expert "depicted as a member of the National Academy of Sciences who had earned a Ph.D. in a pertinent field from one elite university and who was now on the faculty of another." The subject was then shown a book excerpt by that "expert," in which the risk of the issue at hand was portrayed as high or low, well-founded or speculative. The results were stark: When the scientist's position stated that global warming is real and human-caused, for instance, only 23 percent of hierarchical individualists agreed the person was a "trustworthy and knowledgeable expert." Yet 88 percent of egalitarian communitarians accepted the same scientist's expertise. Similar divides were observed on whether nuclear waste can be safely stored underground and whether letting people carry guns deters crime. (The alliances did not always hold. In another study (PDF), hierarchs and communitarians were in favor of laws that would compel the mentally ill to accept treatment, whereas individualists and egalitarians were opposed.)

In other words, people rejected the validity of a scientific source because its conclusion contradicted their deeply held views—and thus the relative risks inherent in each scenario. A hierarchal individualist finds it difficult to believe that the things he prizes (commerce, industry, a man's freedom to possess a gun to defend his family) (PDF) could lead to outcomes deleterious to society. Whereas egalitarian communitarians tend to think that the free market causes harm, that patriarchal families mess up kids, and that people can't handle their guns. The study subjects weren't "anti-science"—not in their own minds, anyway. It's just that "science" was whatever they wanted it to be. "We've come to a misadventure, a bad situation where diverse citizens, who rely on diverse systems of cultural certification, are in conflict," says Kahan.

And that undercuts the standard notion that the way to persuade people is via evidence and argument. In fact, head-on attempts to persuade can sometimes trigger a backfire effect, where people not only fail to change their minds when confronted with the facts—they may hold their wrong views more tenaciously than ever.

Take, for instance, the question of whether Saddam Hussein possessed hidden weapons of mass destruction just before the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. When political scientists Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler showed subjects fake newspaper articles (PDF) in which this was first suggested (in a 2004 quote from President Bush) and then refuted (with the findings of the Bush-commissioned Iraq Survey Group report, which found no evidence of active WMD programs in pre-invasion Iraq), they found that conservatives were more likely than before to believe the claim. (The researchers also tested how liberals responded when shown that Bush did not actually "ban" embryonic stem-cell research. Liberals weren't particularly amenable to persuasion, either, but no backfire effect was observed.)

--

So is there a case study of science denial that largely occupies the political left? Yes: the claim that childhood vaccines are causing an epidemic of autism. Its most famous proponents are an environmentalist (Robert F. Kennedy Jr.) and numerous Hollywood celebrities (most notably Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey). The Huffington Post gives a very large megaphone to denialists. And Seth Mnookin, author of the new book The Panic Virus, notes that if you want to find vaccine deniers, all you need to do is go hang out at Whole Foods.

Vaccine denial has all the hallmarks of a belief system that's not amenable to refutation. Over the past decade, the assertion that childhood vaccines are driving autism rates has been undermined by multiple epidemiological studies—as well as the simple fact that autism rates continue to rise, even though the alleged offending agent in vaccines (a mercury-based preservative called thimerosal) has long since been removed.

Yet the true believers persist—critiquing each new study that challenges their views, and even rallying to the defense of vaccine-autism researcher Andrew Wakefield, after his 1998 Lancet paper—which originated the current vaccine scare—was retracted and he subsequently lost his license (PDF) to practice medicine. But then, why should we be surprised? Vaccine deniers created their own partisan media, such as the website Age of Autism, that instantly blast out critiques and counterarguments whenever any new development casts further doubt on anti-vaccine views.

It all raises the question: Do left and right differ in any meaningful way when it comes to biases in processing information, or are we all equally susceptible?

There are some clear differences. Science denial today is considerably more prominent on the political right—once you survey climate and related environmental issues, anti-evolutionism, attacks on reproductive health science by the Christian right, and stem-cell and biomedical matters. More tellingly, anti-vaccine positions are virtually nonexistent among Democratic officeholders today—whereas anti-climate-science views are becoming monolithic among Republican elected officials.

Some researchers have suggested that there are psychological differences between the left and the right that might impact responses to new information—that conservatives are more rigid and authoritarian, and liberals more tolerant of ambiguity. Psychologist John Jost of New York University has further argued that conservatives are "system justifiers": They engage in motivated reasoning to defend the status quo.

The upshot: All we can currently bank on is the fact that we all have blinders in some situations. The question then becomes: What can be done to counteract human nature itself?

Given the power of our prior beliefs to skew how we respond to new information, one thing is becoming clear: If you want someone to accept new evidence, make sure to present it to them in a context that doesn't trigger a defensive, emotional reaction. (I guess I haven't learned how to do that)

Much more, believe it or not at:

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney 

FuzzNJ wrote:



STFU
HockeyDad
15 years ago



It all raises the question: Do left and right differ in any meaningful way when it comes to biases in processing information, or are we all equally susceptible?

There are some clear differences. Science denial today is considerably more prominent on the political right—once you survey climate and related environmental issues, anti-evolutionism, attacks on reproductive health science by the Christian right, and stem-cell and biomedical matters. More tellingly, anti-vaccine positions are virtually nonexistent among Democratic officeholders today—whereas anti-climate-science views are becoming monolithic among Republican elected officials.

Some researchers have suggested that there are psychological differences between the left and the right that might impact responses to new information—that conservatives are more rigid and authoritarian, and liberals more tolerant of ambiguity. Psychologist John Jost of New York University has further argued that conservatives are "system justifiers": They engage in motivated reasoning to defend the status quo.

FuzzNJ wrote:





That was a lot of writing just to (PDF) say the same liberal enlightened elite notion that Left is better then Right.
HockeyDad
15 years ago
What is actually going on here right now is FuzzNJ is willing to make a leap of faith that others are not willing to do yet.
Others are willing to make a different leap of faith that FuzzNJ thinks is idiotic.
FuzzNJ feels oppressed and just can't understand why the others won't come around to his leap of faith.
FuzzNJ sues demanding compensation as a victim.
rwilly
15 years ago

I'm motivated by a nice pair of GINORMOUS Teats,,,,

wheelrite wrote:




The only 9 words I read on this thread.
fishinguitarman
15 years ago
Hey, Fuzzy...Try venturing outside the political threads for once...Talk about an actual cigar....make a trade...make some FRIENDS....you could prolly use some....


LIVE ON THE EDGE!!!!!
HockeyDad
15 years ago

Hey, Fuzzy...Try venturing outside the political threads for once...Talk about an actual cigar....make a trade...make some FRIENDS....you could prolly use some....


LIVE ON THE EDGE!!!!!

fishinguitarman wrote:





I know of some sweet Mark Twains on auction right now......
dpnewell
15 years ago

Hey, Fuzzy...Try venturing outside the political threads for once...Talk about an actual cigar....make a trade...make some FRIENDS....you could prolly use some....


LIVE ON THE EDGE!!!!!

fishinguitarman wrote:



About a year ago I gave him a personal and open invitation to join us at the NJ/Dante's weekly herf, but he's yet to show. Maybe he's uncomfortable smoking with a dozen or so folks who don't think the way he does, or maybe he doesn’t smoke cigars. Who knows?

Fuzz, we're having a big one in May when Ray comes to town, and it will probably be on a weekend, so no more excuses.
tailgater
15 years ago
"There are some clear differences. Science denial today is considerably more prominent on the political right—once you survey climate and related environmental issues, anti-evolutionism, attacks on reproductive health science by the Christian right, and stem-cell and biomedical matters. More tellingly, anti-vaccine positions are virtually nonexistent among Democratic officeholders today—whereas anti-climate-science views are becoming monolithic among Republican elected officials."

This is funny.
The autor claims that the political right has "Science Denial".
Since when is it "Denial" to debate a topic?

Classic leftist elitism.
Make a claim, and then stymie the debate with false claims agaisnt your opponent rather than their data.

FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

"There are some clear differences. Science denial today is considerably more prominent on the political right—once you survey climate and related environmental issues, anti-evolutionism, attacks on reproductive health science by the Christian right, and stem-cell and biomedical matters. More tellingly, anti-vaccine positions are virtually nonexistent among Democratic officeholders today—whereas anti-climate-science views are becoming monolithic among Republican elected officials."

This is funny.
The autor claims that the political right has "Science Denial".
Since when is it "Denial" to debate a topic?

Classic leftist elitism.
Make a claim, and then stymie the debate with false claims agaisnt your opponent rather than their data.

tailgater wrote:



The right has creationist, climate and female reproductive peer reviewed scientific data to consider?
jackconrad
15 years ago
The cool thing about the Right is we just really all agree to be Good guys and gals.It's a misconception that afew Zealots put the words in our mouths. Unlike many Of the Liberal persuasion we think freely and without malice..
HockeyDad
15 years ago

The right has creationist, climate and female reproductive peer reviewed scientific data to consider?

FuzzNJ wrote:



Creationist. Is this a stipulation that the Left are all Godless?

Climate? Don't you mean global warming and I thought you were against religion?

Female reproductive? Is this a stipulation that the Left like to kill babies?




Sorry Fuzz but you posted a fluff piece, as usual.
DrMaddVibe
15 years ago

Sorry Fuzz but you posted a fluff piece, as usual.

HockeyDad wrote:




SOFTENER SHEET OUTRAGE!!!!
tailgater
15 years ago

The right has creationist, climate and female reproductive peer reviewed scientific data to consider?

FuzzNJ wrote:




In order.

Creationist: Why are you so afraid? Why do you insist that anyone who believes in intelligent design only does so in fear of their god? Why can't you accept the fact that MOST who believe in ID do so while accepting natural selection as fact?

Climate: Despite what algore has told you on his internets, there is no proof to suggest that mankind is causing global climate shifts. And it's too bad that so much time is wasted on this nonsense because renewable energy and a cleaner planet should be our goal no matter how you feel on the subject, but it's all lost on the hypocrits like algore who waste more energy than most medium sized towns.

female reproductive: Where's the denial here?
And if you're going to segue into stem cell, please realize that if stem cells were truly the easy, immediate solution to all that ails us, then private companies would have continued the research even without the federal governement input.
Happens all the time.
You know. By those evil corporations.

Point being, there is zero denial. Just an opposing viewpoint that the left are both unwilling and unable to grasp.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

In order.

Creationist: Why are you so afraid? Why do you insist that anyone who believes in intelligent design only does so in fear of their god? Why can't you accept the fact that MOST who believe in ID do so while accepting natural selection as fact?

Climate: Despite what algore has told you on his internets, there is no proof to suggest that mankind is causing global climate shifts. And it's too bad that so much time is wasted on this nonsense because renewable energy and a cleaner planet should be our goal no matter how you feel on the subject, but it's all lost on the hypocrits like algore who waste more energy than most medium sized towns.

female reproductive: Where's the denial here?
And if you're going to segue into stem cell, please realize that if stem cells were truly the easy, immediate solution to all that ails us, then private companies would have continued the research even without the federal governement input.
Happens all the time.
You know. By those evil corporations.

Point being, there is zero denial. Just an opposing viewpoint that the left are both unwilling and unable to grasp.

tailgater wrote:



Afraid? I am not afraid of ID in the least. I have stated, in the other thread, in which you were a part of, that ID just is not scientific and does not belong in a science class as it does not meet scientific requirements, including the ability to be proven false. ID is repackaged creationism with the biblical story of creationism taken out and it supposes an outside creator, so it would belong in a religious studies class along with other creation myths, once again, because it is not a science.

I also never said that anyone who believes in ID does so out of fear of their god. Natural selection is a theory to support evolution. The fact that species evolve is impossible to deny at this point for any rational person at least. I also gave a link on the other thread that showed dozens of transitional fossils, something which you and others have chosen to ignore or reject.

And I don't know why but I still feel as if I need to clarify that I nor science has all the answers.

Al Gore isn't the only person who talks about global climate change, nor is he a researcher. He is the one who is the most visable because of his position.

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/ 

These things are measurable.

The science denial is partially stem cell. Tell me though, why are you expecting immediate and easy solutions to what ail us? New fields of research don't work that way. To expect that is ridiculous to be honest. And yes, some private companies will do private research, but without government backing, it remains difficult. It has always been that way for something without the 'easy and immediate' benefit of profit. Pure research funding is very hard to come by.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

That was a lot of writing just to (PDF) say the same liberal enlightened elite notion that Left is better then Right.

HockeyDad wrote:



The PDF's are links to actual research to back up the writer's claims. The left and the right both react in similar ways, like when liberals were asked about Bush's 'banning' of stem cell research.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

Creationist. Is this a stipulation that the Left are all Godless?

Climate? Don't you mean global warming and I thought you were against religion?

Female reproductive? Is this a stipulation that the Left like to kill babies?

Sorry Fuzz but you posted a fluff piece, as usual.

HockeyDad wrote:



No, I am, but there are a lot of lefties who are religious.

I am, studying climate isn't a religion by any definition.

A fluff piece would be something praising somebody or something without research or leaving out criticism of the group the particular group the writer belongs to. This is neither.
tailgater
15 years ago

Afraid? I am not afraid of ID in the least. I have stated, in the other thread, in which you were a part of, that ID just is not scientific and does not belong in a science class as it does not meet scientific requirements, including the ability to be proven false. ID is repackaged creationism with the biblical story of creationism taken out and it supposes an outside creator, so it would belong in a religious studies class along with other creation myths, once again, because it is not a science.

I also never said that anyone who believes in ID does so out of fear of their god. Natural selection is a theory to support evolution. The fact that species evolve is impossible to deny at this point for any rational person at least. I also gave a link on the other thread that showed dozens of transitional fossils, something which you and others have chosen to ignore or reject.

And I don't know why but I still feel as if I need to clarify that I nor science has all the answers.

Al Gore isn't the only person who talks about global climate change, nor is he a researcher. He is the one who is the most visable because of his position.

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/ 

These things are measurable.

The science denial is partially stem cell. Tell me though, why are you expecting immediate and easy solutions to what ail us? New fields of research don't work that way. To expect that is ridiculous to be honest. And yes, some private companies will do private research, but without government backing, it remains difficult. It has always been that way for something without the 'easy and immediate' benefit of profit. Pure research funding is very hard to come by.

FuzzNJ wrote:




ID does not have to be "repackaged creationism". That's your way of minimizing it because you view a religious viewpiont as weak.

You keep having an issue understanding evolution vs the theory of evolution.
The fact that living things evolve is not a theory. It's a proven fact.
The theory of evolution, as defined by Darwin (and others before him) proposes that life evolved from the unliving. Forget the too simplisitic yet highly controversial man from ape. Go deeper.

Climate change is indeed measureable. But why blame it on man and our byproducts? From what I've read, deforestation has had a larger impact than our fossil fuels and greenhouse gasses, yet the left continue to push regulations and limits without concern for the facts.
I don't claim they're "in denial" like you would. Rather, I recognize their agenda which is more governement regulation and therefore untapped tax revenues.

As for stem cells, the "immediate and easy" was in response to the outcry from the left when Dubya ended stem cell collection under federal money.
Private firms put money into research that shows promise and then shows progress. Nanotechnology, for instance, has blossomed at companies that don't receive federal funding. If stem cells provided a REAL answer then the work will continue.

So I ask: where is the "Denial" that you claim exists?
It's a debate. It's not a blind myopic view, although many from both sides do embody this approach.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

ID does not have to be "repackaged creationism". That's your way of minimizing it because you view a religious viewpiont as weak.

You keep having an issue understanding evolution vs the theory of evolution.
The fact that living things evolve is not a theory. It's a proven fact.
The theory of evolution, as defined by Darwin (and others before him) proposes that life evolved from the unliving. Forget the too simplisitic yet highly controversial man from ape. Go deeper.

Climate change is indeed measureable. But why blame it on man and our byproducts? From what I've read, deforestation has had a larger impact than our fossil fuels and greenhouse gasses, yet the left continue to push regulations and limits without concern for the facts.
I don't claim they're "in denial" like you would. Rather, I recognize their agenda which is more governement regulation and therefore untapped tax revenues.

As for stem cells, the "immediate and easy" was in response to the outcry from the left when Dubya ended stem cell collection under federal money.
Private firms put money into research that shows promise and then shows progress. Nanotechnology, for instance, has blossomed at companies that don't receive federal funding. If stem cells provided a REAL answer then the work will continue.

So I ask: where is the "Denial" that you claim exists?
It's a debate. It's not a blind myopic view, although many from both sides do embody this approach.

tailgater wrote:



Ok, if I'm misunderstanding ID, then tell me what it is please. Is or is not the basic principal that complex organisms like say a cell required an 'intelligence' behind it in order for it to exist? Does it or does it not give as examples things like a watch or writings on clay tablets as examples to compare by saying one surmises that the watch or text were created by an intelligent being, so how can we think that a cell or any other complex biological organism is not the same? If I am correct, what or who is that intelligence?

Would the person teaching ID theorize an alien life form from another planet? No, silly answer, other planets didn't exist because ID also encompasses the universe as a complex 'thing' that would require intelligence to exist, so other planets didn't exist either.

Abiogenesis is the study of how life started, not evolution and I've linked an article describing an experiment that has been repeated where the components necessary for life have been created from inorganic compounds in the lab. More experimentation is of course necessary and more work to be done, of course.

CO2 is also a byproduct of trees. If we have less trees because of deforestation, wouldn't we have less CO2? The burning of fossil fuels has risen as has the CO2 level, again both in measurable ways. I would tend to trust independent scientists that ones who were commisioned by the fossil fuel companies, just a quirk of mine.

Real science and research will hopefully always continue. There is also the question of pace. More funding and interest, the faster the progress.
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