pdxstogieman
14 years ago
Any guess why the U.S. should allow this pipeline to be built from Canada to the Gulf in order to further big oil's desire to be able to export Canadian oil that currently goes to the US to the world market instead? Wonder why we should allow this pipeline to be built when Canada has already declined to build it across their own provinces to their coast for export? I'd venture to say that average joe American wouldn't want this scar on the land constructed and all the land it crosses condemned via eminent domain when all that oil will be refined in Free trade zones on the gulf and exported tax free to international destinations. The jobs involved in building this atrocity across the US are not nearly benefit enough to outweigh the consequences. And yet we have legislators championing this in congress. Guess we know who they represent, not you or me, their owners that have bought and paid for them. If they represented us they'd at least be looking at legal provisions that would require US taxation on every single gallon transported through that pipeline.

Colonialism still exists. Instead of the British, French, US, or other sovereign states acting as the colonial overlords, it's the overarching global corporate raiders that are the new Emporers.

http://thinkprogress.org/green/2011/12/20/393247/fact-check-keystone-xl-would-ship-foreign-oil-to-foreign-lands/ 

Fact Check: Keystone XL Would Ship Foreign Oil To Foreign Lands
By Guest Blogger on Dec 20, 2011 at 2:24 pm

Our guest blogger is Anthony Swift, policy analyst for the Natural Resources Defense Council.

One of the most important facts that is missing in the national debate surrounding the proposed Keystone XL tar sands pipeline is this — Keystone XL will not bring any more oil into the United State for decades to come. Canada doesn’t have nearly enough oil to fill existing pipelines going to the United States. However, existing Canadian oil pipelines all go to the Midwest, where the only buyer for their crude is the United States. Keystone XL would divert Canadian oil from refineries in the Midwest to the Gulf Coast where it can be refined and exported. Many of these refineries are in free trade zones where oil may be exported to international buyers without paying U.S. taxes. And that is exactly what Valero, one of the largest potential buyers of Keystone XL’s oil, has told its investors it will do. The idea that Keystone XL will improve U.S. oil supply is a documented scam being played on the American people by Big Oil and its friends in Washington DC.

The fact that Canada has excess pipeline capacity is well known. In a Department of Energy report evaluating Keystone XL’s impacts on U.S. energy supply over the next twenty years, the agency found that it will take decades for Canada to produce enough oil to fill existing pipelines. On page 90, the report concludes that the United States will import the same amount of crude from Canada through 2030 whether or not Keystone XL is built.

From Canada’s perspective, the problem with existing pipelines is they all end in the U.S. Midwest and only allow one buyer – the United States. As Canada’s Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver recently said, “we export 97 percent of our energy to the U.S. and we would like to diversify that.” However, the Canadian government has put the brakes on the two pipeline proposals to export tar sands through its provinces due to the need to take more time to listen to its own public’s concerns about water and safety.

Keystone XL would be Canada’s first step in diversifying its energy market. The pipeline would divert large volumes of Canadian oil from the Midwest to the Gulf Coast, where it would be available for the first time to buyers on the world market. To sweeten the deal, many of the refineries on the Gulf Coast happen to be located in foreign trade zones, where they can export Canadian oil to the world market without paying U.S. taxes. Oil Change International investigated this issue in a report that found the Keystone XL pipeline was part of a larger strategy to sell increasing volumes of Canadian crude on the international diesel market.

When Canadian regulators at the National Energy Board (NEB) considered the Keystone XL proposal in 2008, they asked TransCanada to justify another pipeline when there was already so much spare capacity. TransCanada conceded that Keystone XL would take oil from existing pipelines, increasing shipping costs. However, TransCanada argued that this cost would be more than offset as shifting Canadian oil from the Midwest to the Gulf would increase the price that Americans paid for Canadian oil by $3.9 billion.

In fact, TransCanada refused to support a requirement that oil on Keystone XL be used in the United States in a recent Congressional hearing. Earlier this month, Representative Edward Markey asked TransCanada’s President Alex Pourbaix to support a condition that would require the oil on Keystone XL to be used in the United States. Mr. Pourbaix refused, saying that a requirement to keep oil on Keystone XL in the United States would cause refineries to back out of their contracts. That very well may be the case as Valero, one of the largest prospective purchasers of Keystone XL’s crude, has already told its investors the its future business is in international export.

Simply stated, Keystone XL is a way to get Canadian oil out of the United States, not into it.

HockeyDad
14 years ago
That blogger is just spewing a load of crap to scare people because the potential environmental damage angle isn't working.

The issue is green energy. If the USA has more access to non-green energy, it will delay the green energy agenda because of overwhelming cost effectiveness. Choke off non-green energy to artificially promote green energy.

It is always fun to watch people who drive cars complain about "Big Oil".
dubleuhb
14 years ago
600,000 + miles of pipeline already working fine here. If the chicken in chief gets re-elected he will green light this. Just pandering for the ''green'' vote.
jackconrad
14 years ago
If the stupid assed Liberals would allow us to extract our own oil this would not be an issue.
DadZilla3
14 years ago
SOLAR, WIND, AND BATTERY POWERED OUTRAGE!
wheelrite
14 years ago
FuzzNJ
14 years ago

If the stupid assed Liberals would allow us to extract our own oil this would not be an issue.

jackconrad wrote:



There is no 'our' oil. The corporations that handle the supply here are not looking out for the consumers in this country, only their bottom line.

We are the biggest importer of crude oil, and the biggest exporter of fuel in the world. If we wanted oil for this market to keep the costs down, we wouldn't be exporting the fuel after we've refined it.

All the oil, no matter where it's from, ends up on the world market. There is no 'our' oil. Now if you want to nationalize all natural resources to better improve distribution and control prices, then we can say 'our' oil.
HockeyDad
14 years ago

and the biggest exporter of fuel in the world.

FuzzNJ wrote:



At a minimum that is a highly misleading statement if not completely made up.

The news article currently out there is that for the first time in 60 years, the USA is a net exporter of fuel products. The key here is "net exporter".

The USA is the largest importer of crude oil in the world but the USA also imports refined petroleum products and exports refined petroleum products. Depending on geography and refining capacity, some parts of the country import and some parts export.

As for why we managed to become a net exporter of fuel products in 2011 for the first time in 60 years can be attributed to a couple of factors.

1. Gasoline usage in the USA has declined for 4 straight years in the USA due to the bad economy.
2. Ethanol
3. More fuel efficient vehicles.

The end result is our refiners have the capacity to net export right now. Pipelines like Keystone XL would help us move the crude oil to the refiners instead of having crude oil gluts in certain regions. Without the right pipelines, it is easier to tanker in crude oil from Saudi Arabia and Nigeria than it is to get oil from Montana.
FuzzNJ
14 years ago

At a minimum that is a highly misleading statement if not completely made up.

The news article currently out there is that for the first time in 60 years, the USA is a net exporter of fuel products. The key here is "net exporter".

The USA is the largest importer of crude oil in the world but the USA also imports refined petroleum products and exports refined petroleum products. Depending on geography and refining capacity, some parts of the country import and some parts export.

As for why we managed to become a net exporter of fuel products in 2011 for the first time in 60 years can be attributed to a couple of factors.

1. Gasoline usage in the USA has declined for 4 straight years in the USA due to the bad economy.
2. Ethanol
3. More fuel efficient vehicles.

The end result is our refiners have the capacity to net export right now. Pipelines like Keystone XL would help us move the crude oil to the refiners instead of having crude oil gluts in certain regions. Without the right pipelines, it is easier to tanker in crude oil from Saudi Arabia and Nigeria than it is to get oil from Montana.

HockeyDad wrote:



You are correct about the export thing, I misheard when I was listening to the news on the radio. But the argument that we need to drill here more or build this pipeline to have our own oil isn't valid.
pdxstogieman
14 years ago
Why should anyone in the US want a pipeline extension built across US soil in order to transport Canadian diluted bitumen to refineries in Free Trade zones that will export that oil tax free to international destinations? Keystone XL has nothing to do with moving oil from Montana in order to make it available for refining and consumption within the US.

"When Canadian regulators at the National Energy Board (NEB) considered the Keystone XL proposal in 2008, they asked TransCanada to justify another pipeline when there was already so much spare capacity. TransCanada conceded that Keystone XL would take oil from existing pipelines, increasing shipping costs. However, TransCanada argued that this cost would be more than offset as shifting Canadian oil from the Midwest to the Gulf would increase the price that Americans paid for Canadian oil by $3.9 billion.

In fact, TransCanada refused to support a requirement that oil on Keystone XL be used in the United States in a recent Congressional hearing. Earlier this month, Representative Edward Markey asked TransCanada’s President Alex Pourbaix to support a condition that would require the oil on Keystone XL to be used in the United States. Mr. Pourbaix refused, saying that a requirement to keep oil on Keystone XL in the United States would cause refineries to back out of their contracts. That very well may be the case as Valero, one of the largest prospective purchasers of Keystone XL’s crude, has already told its investors the its future business is in international export".

Why authorize building a pipeline in the US to facilitate export of Canadian oil sands internationally when Canadians themselves have rejected building a pipeline for this purpose on their own soil?

There is no good reason other than it is in the financial interest of corporations that are exerting influence on our representatives to support it.
FuzzNJ
14 years ago
/\ nicely said
HockeyDad
14 years ago

Why should anyone in the US want a pipeline extension built across US soil in order to transport Canadian diluted bitumen to refineries in Free Trade zones that will export that oil tax free to international destinations? Keystone XL has nothing to do with moving oil from Montana in order to make it available for refining and consumption within the US.

"When Canadian regulators at the National Energy Board (NEB) considered the Keystone XL proposal in 2008, they asked TransCanada to justify another pipeline when there was already so much spare capacity. TransCanada conceded that Keystone XL would take oil from existing pipelines, increasing shipping costs. However, TransCanada argued that this cost would be more than offset as shifting Canadian oil from the Midwest to the Gulf would increase the price that Americans paid for Canadian oil by $3.9 billion.

In fact, TransCanada refused to support a requirement that oil on Keystone XL be used in the United States in a recent Congressional hearing. Earlier this month, Representative Edward Markey asked TransCanada’s President Alex Pourbaix to support a condition that would require the oil on Keystone XL to be used in the United States. Mr. Pourbaix refused, saying that a requirement to keep oil on Keystone XL in the United States would cause refineries to back out of their contracts. That very well may be the case as Valero, one of the largest prospective purchasers of Keystone XL’s crude, has already told its investors the its future business is in international export".

Why authorize building a pipeline in the US to facilitate export of Canadian oil sands internationally when Canadians themselves have rejected building a pipeline for this purpose on their own soil?

There is no good reason other than it is in the financial interest of corporations that are exerting influence on our representatives to support it.

pdxstogieman wrote:




Didn't you already copy-n-paste all that from some blogger?
snowwolf777
14 years ago
Time for a little "Copy-N-Paste from Some Blogger" outrage.

[frypan]
HockeyDad
14 years ago

Why should anyone in the US want a pipeline extension built across US soil in order to transport Canadian diluted bitumen to refineries in Free Trade zones that will export that oil tax free to international destinations? Keystone XL has nothing to do with moving oil from Montana in order to make it available for refining and consumption within the US.

pdxstogieman wrote:



Do at least a little homework. One of the things that Keystone XL pipeline is planned to do is pick up domestic oil in Montana. Montana and North Dakota have a pipeline shortage. Even if every drop of that Canadian oil went to a refinery in a free trade zone and was then processed and exported to Latin America, we would still have the jobs at the refinery, pipeline operation, shipping, and all their associated support industries.


"When Canadian regulators at the National Energy Board (NEB) considered the Keystone XL proposal in 2008, they asked TransCanada to justify another pipeline when there was already so much spare capacity. TransCanada conceded that Keystone XL would take oil from existing pipelines, increasing shipping costs. However, TransCanada argued that this cost would be more than offset as shifting Canadian oil from the Midwest to the Gulf would increase the price that Americans paid for Canadian oil by $3.9 billion.

pdxstogieman wrote:



There is a glut of oil in the midwest. The refiners there are making good money by buying the glut oil cheaper than market. Some refineries have actually sued to stop the pipeline because they like their competitive advantage. Part of the pipeline is to solve this problem. (not the part everyone is complaining about!) Part of it is to increase capacity.


In fact, TransCanada refused to support a requirement that oil on Keystone XL be used in the United States in a recent Congressional hearing. Earlier this month, Representative Edward Markey asked TransCanada’s President Alex Pourbaix to support a condition that would require the oil on Keystone XL to be used in the United States. Mr. Pourbaix refused, saying that a requirement to keep oil on Keystone XL in the United States would cause refineries to back out of their contracts. That very well may be the case as Valero, one of the largest prospective purchasers of Keystone XL’s crude, has already told its investors the its future business is in international export".

pdxstogieman wrote:



The pipeline company would be stupid to agree to this. Now the US could essentially control the price since this oil could not go on the open market. This would also be stupid for the refiners because the USA could pass legislation requiring 25% ethanol and there would now be a huge oil glut and they would be unable to sell the product. Now if the USA did pass a 25% ethanol law, this pipeline would likely not be necessary at all unless the USA wanted to replace all middle eastern oil with Canadian oil. (Hint, hint. Ethanol)


Why authorize building a pipeline in the US to facilitate export of Canadian oil sands internationally when Canadians themselves have rejected building a pipeline for this purpose on their own soil?

pdxstogieman wrote:



Your (the blogger's) entire argument is based on the manufactured theory that all this oil is just passing through the US for export. Neither of you can know if this is true but it makes for nice scare tactics and it is the standard talking point. One of the other talking points is that this pipeline will kill more green jobs than it creates from the construction and operation of the pipeline. That doesn't pass the logic test if all the oil is for export out of the USA. Throw it on the wall and see what sticks.

Canada already has numerous pipelines. One actually crosses the Rockies and goes to Vancouver and the State of Washington. It is under consideration for expansion. There are plans under development and approval for a new Canadian pipeline to the west coast for Asian export. It has not been rejected nor approved. but faces the same "not in my backyard" resistance.

The USA and our refiners have been given first shot at this Canadian oil. If we respectfully decline, China and Japan will take it and long term we'll be just fine as long as we keep increasing the ethanol percentage requirements.

pdxstogieman
14 years ago
How much Valero stock do you own?
DrafterX
14 years ago
ethanol sucks... and I think a couple of the local gas stations are lying about being ethanol free... wish there was an ethanol test strip or somethin... 😟
HockeyDad
14 years ago

How much Valero stock do you own?

pdxstogieman wrote:




None.

If you picked up on my hints that the pipeline is going to get blocked because the USA will replace future oil demand with increased ethanol and Canada will build a pipeline to the West Coast and ship the oil to China, you would be buying ArcherDanielsMidland and Monsanto. (Two fine American companies!)

Here's another hint.....wait until Federal mandated ethanol use reaches the point where we need to ship it via pipeline instead of rail car because of the sheer quantity. Ethanol can't go in petroleum product pipelines without major upgrades. The first ethanol rated pipeline in the USA went into service in late 2008 between Tampa and Orlando.

I thought this would blow your mind. Sometimes you just gotta do what the bloggers tell you to do!

Next time you drive past a gas station and see a tanker truck unloading fuel, stop and ask the driver where he picks up that fuel and where it comes from to get there. Make sure to thank him.

Oh and in advance, you're welcome!
DrMaddVibe
14 years ago

None.

If you picked up on my hints that the pipeline is going to get blocked because the USA will replace future oil demand with increased ethanol and Canada will build a pipeline to the West Coast and ship the oil to China, you would be buying ArcherDanielsMidland and Monsanto. (Two fine American companies!)

Here's another hint.....wait until Federal mandated ethanol use reaches the point where we need to ship it via pipeline instead of rail car because of the sheer quantity. Ethanol can't go in petroleum product pipelines without major upgrades. The first ethanol rated pipeline in the USA went into service in late 2008 between Tampa and Orlando.

I thought this would blow your mind. Sometimes you just gotta do what the bloggers tell you to do!

Next time you drive past a gas station and see a tanker truck unloading fuel, stop and ask the driver where he picks up that fuel and where it comes from to get there. Make sure to thank him.

Oh and in advance, you're welcome!

HockeyDad wrote:




Not so fast there...a certain SOMEONE who has a vested interest is going to be very rich off this scheme.


http://www.cigarbid.com/Forum/c/posts/613342/Obamas-Pipe-Dream-Could-Grease-Chinas-Energy-Skids 


If only people would do their OWN research for news and checking!
dubleuhb
14 years ago


Next time you drive past a gas station and see a tanker truck unloading fuel, stop and ask the driver where he picks up that fuel and where it comes from to get there. Make sure to thank him.

HockeyDad wrote:


If people only new what it takes to get a gallon of fuel to the nozzle
The company I work for is closing three refining facilities in the Philly area, if they can't dump them. They have decided it will be cheaper to bring finished product in by ship and put it in the pipeline rather than refine it themselves.

BTW I never get a thank you.
DrafterX
14 years ago

They have decided it will be cheaper to bring finished product in by ship and put it in the pipeline rather than refine it themselves.

dubleuhb wrote:




ya... especially with all that free Iraqi oil we get now... 😟
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