usahog,

Sorry I missed your previous question about 'proof' that there is no connection between 9/11 and Iraq. I am posting here so that it does not jack the other threads.

Funny question, if you think about it. I have to prove that there is no connection? Show me the connection! The burden of proof is on those who make the claim that they are connected, after all. And no one exactly says it, do they? Just hint at it. Enough to get people to blend rhetoric together...suspicious motif.

The point is simple: Saddam Hussein is precisely the kind of leader al-Qaeda opposes and wants to bring down. Hussein is a purely secular leader. When he used gas on his own people, it was on the Kurds in the North of Iraq and on the religious fundamentalists threatening uprising in the South of Iraq. This latter group is along the lines of al-Qaeda, looking for a Islamic law to govern Iraq and the rest of the Middle East.

Al-Qaeda is a fundamentalist, messianic religious group. Hussein is a secular military dictator, not at all a religion-based leader, and so is one of those most in need of overthrowing. There is no basis for a natural alliance at all. Bin Laden has repeatedly called for the fundamentalists in Iraq to rise up and overthrow Hussein.

Notice that Bush never makes the link. It is just 'assumed' or 'hinted at.' But it is never outright said, that Hussein was involved with 9/11 attacks, because there is no evidence. In fact, it is ludicrous to make the connection. Bin Laden and Hussein are natural and active enemies.

Sorry! Sometimes bad guys are enemies to each other. Guess that whole 'you're with us or your agin' us' doesn't apply here. Sometimes the bad guys are against each other.

This doesn't mean that there is no argument for war in Iraq. I simply mean that that argument cannot appeal to 9/11 for justification. There just isn't a link.

John

Please tell me this is a joke or some sarcasm.

http://www.factsofisrael.com/load.php?p=http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000407.html 

http://www.intellnet.org/news/?type=category&value=Abu%20Nidal 

Saddam has invaded almost EVERY neighbor Iraq has and tried to gain a stranglehold on the world's oil supply a while back. You might remember Desert Storm? Yeah...

John, I simply asked you to show me facts that there is not... Germany and Japan both had different agenda's but they bacame an Axis....Right now and even before.. these Fundamintalests (sp) and religious groups are still of the same beliefs there are a couple different types of Islam... and Yes Saddam is for Saddam he will fit what ever bill he needs to keep what he has (His Power) Osama is an extremist and very bent on the western world of Infadels in his homeland... Saddam also wants the Western World out of the area so he can still run his ring of Terror...
Basically they both ran there country's with the same kind of Control... Death to anyone who Apposed them...
Now could you please show me facts???
it is not my place to show you facts because you were the one blatingly telling others there's no connection... I just differ with your Theory...Until I see different Facts from what I have seen that tells me different....

I'll be waiting
Thanks
Hog

I usually try to stay out of the political pot but this issue really is interesting. First off, I do believe we should take the appropriate military action to remove Hussein from power. Not because of some possible ties to AlQeda but because he has not lived up to his end of the bargain from his surrender during the gulf war. He has not provided convincing evidence that all his weapons of mass destruction have been destroyed. and I believe he is a very dangerous man.

We should have smoked his ass the first time around. Along with his sons.

That's my simplistic view of things.

Of course on another level, there's all kinds of deals going on behind the scenes between the different governments of the region. Turkey won't let us build up bases there unless we pay them $10 billion. Plus they want a gaurantee that we won't allow the Kurds to create their own country in the northern region of Iraq where they are currently living.

The Kurds got hosed by the international community the first time around. We asked them to stand up to Hussein and when they did we sat by and left hundred or thousands of them get killed. We eventually came in and secured the no fly zone but by then the damage was done.

Personally, I don't believe that removing Hussein will make a big difference unless we're willing to go in and establish a post war democratic government run by the UN or the US like we did in Japan after WWII. Of course none of the other Arab states want that. The last thing they want is a democracy next door. Next thing you know, their citizens will want the same thing. and none of the Arab rulers want to give up power to their people. Politically it's a giant mess.

The jury is still out on Afghanistan. The government is still very fragile. All it will take is a leader with charisma and some power that the peole will follow and they could be right back where they were a year ago. There's a lot of warlords that would love to move up and fill that spot.

OK enough of my rant.

Here's some help Penzt...

GOBTAPPA, Iraq -- On the worst day of his life, Qadir Ismail Ali said, he found so many corpses on the ground at Gobtappa that he walked right past those of his wife, Hajir, who was 50, and their eldest daughter, Amina, 18. He failed to recognize his girls, Aska, 12, Kocha, 10, and all three boys, Sadir, 11, Dara, 6, and Sarbast, 5. And he overlooked Hawzhen, a girl of 18 months, huddled with the others in a neighbor's yard.
According to historians and human rights advocates, the Iraqi air force had dropped 13 gas-laden containers on Ali's home village just after 6 p.m. that day -- May 30, 1988. The attack was part of Operation Anfal, mounted to punish Kurdish militiamen and their families for rising up in alliance with the Iranian enemy of the time. Kurds say as many as 180,000 people in 60 villages were killed in the operation.
That number is disputed, but one thing is certain: In the bloodstained ledger of modern Iraq, no population has paid quite so dearly as the Kurds for opposing President Saddam Hussein's Baath Party government.

There may be proof of a connection. It has been alleged that Iraq provides funding for Al-Qaeda. It has also been alleged that Al-Qaeda members are soaking up sun in Baghdad. Allegations aren't proof, I know. There is probably some basis in fact. Perhaps showing proof would compromise an intelligence source. A traitor in Iraq must keep a very low profile. Opinion: Al-Qaeda will take Iraq's money and finance terror. What's the saying? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I do agree though that if we are going to start killing another countries citizens, we had better lay our cards on the table and show just cause. Why? Because we're the good guys!

usahog,

There is no motivation for and no evidence of a connection. My 'proof' is that there is nothing to suggest the connection.

The Germany/Japan analogy doesn't wash: neither had plans on overtaking the other.

I am the last person to defend Hussein. Tyrant, terrible murderer. But we can't defend the war initiative with the al-Qaeda connection. It isn't there.

Sorry if that isn't enough, but, frankly, I suspect you wouldn't accept anything as 'facts' from me. I've given you the facts of the situation, in my first post, and you don't seem to register them as important or instructive. Don't know what to say. Try these links for facts:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/11/01/bushiraq021101 

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/08/26/time.iraq/ 

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kpbs/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=448549 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A59403-2002Sep9?language=printer 

None of these people interviewed, high-ranking members of the intelligence community, could be conceived of as 'leftwing'; far from it, they are mainstream all the way.

Again, this doesn't impact the big question of war in Iraq. It just impacts that part of the 'argument.'

John

Mainstream is all in the wording... I can see where you are not getting your Facts from... CNN and the likes... they throw out Gibberish CR@P to keep people watching.. and also fear in allot of folks...
i like up to the minute facts on things especially when it comes to my way of living and or my life... or the lives of my Countrymen....I'll give you a little bit of connections and you connect the dots...

Hog

SMOOOOOOOOTCH!

I love you, hog.

I do need facts.

John

p.s., hog

By 'mainstream,' I did not mean the news organizations. I meant the people from the intelligence community who gave statements.

Just to be clear.

John

Gibberish = Jibberish

and I know what you meant by Mainstream.. and do you honestly think these people are going to stand up and give out all the information they have just to satisfy the curiosidy (sp) of the world? and risk giving up to much information that may threaten the security of this nation and its people... the most people who are talking are the ones who are FORMER or RET. So and So
and all they can do is speculate whats going on...
so then the media to finish out there Hour long Post.. toss in there Liberal .02 cents worth of Jibberish and speculation... it boils down to Martha Get your Boots on... the News is ON!!!!!!

Hog

Military-Intelligence Exclusive
Saturday night, February 8, in the Iraqi-Kurdish city of Suleimaniyeh, al Qaeda and Iraqi military intelligence fired their first shot of the US-Iraq war - by assassination. They used their shared surrogate, the extremist Kurdish Ansar al-Islam of northeast Iraq, to eliminate the top command of the pro-American Patriotic Union of Iraqi Kurdistan’s fighting militia.

The three-way collaboration between Baghdad, al Qaeda and the Kurdish fundamentalist terrorists provided a live and incontrovertible smoking gun. The price was heavy, a grave setback for US war plans.

this time, they pretended to be defectors.

Ansar al Islam, which has been fighting the PUK for two years and whose members trained in Afghanistan, used double agents to convince the Kurdish commanders of this strategic northeastern corner of Iraq that top Ansar commanders were willing to defect. The defectors, it was promised, would bring fresh evidence of the collaboration between Iraqi military intelligence and al Qaeda.
The offer came just after secretary of state Colin Powell spoke of this collaboration at his Security Council presentation of America’s case against Iraq on February 5

thats about all I can give you right now... lets wait until Iraq is liberated and then you will see more...

Hog

usahog
"it is not my place to show you facts because you were the one blatingly telling others there's no connection."

that's a bull **** argument. you are talking about us taking overt action, by going to war based on the facts. what facts have you seen that show saddam is ready to strike us. korea is a real threat, but again they didn't try to kill his daddy and they don't have oil. if george is so pissed at saddam, why doesn't he fly a jet that he was "trained" to fly and blow saddam's ass to kingdom come.



i forgot, when he missed his physical, he was suspended from flying status.

There is much more of a connection between the Al-qaeda and the royal family of Saudi Arabia. I would suggest that we bomb them before Iraq.
Just a thought
Homebrew

Why is there so much ignorance in this forum? I'm sorry, but this deal with Iraq is not at all about Al Qaeda. We are fighting a war on terrorism, not a war on Al Qaeda. Iraq has participated in terrorist activities on way too many occasions to count. We are trying to stop them from taking their terrorism to global levels before it is too late. N. Korea is only looking for publicity and worldwide acknowledgement. They do not pose an immediate threat to the world. They make various statements to say to the world "Don't forget I am here." We have not forgotten them or put them aside. We are just focusing our attentions on the more immediate threat to global peace. Just my 2 cents.

tarheel,

Why is there so much ignorance in YOUR post? We aren't proposing to go to war with Iraq because it supports terrorism. We are proposing to go to war because of violations of UN resolutions, conditions of the cessation of war in 1991. The disarmament of Iraq is tied to the Gulf War, not terrorism.

The UN resolutions in question have nothing to do with terrorism. If we are going to war for that reason, terrorism, Bush hasn't said it and needs to say it. And the consequences would be insane...who's next, the IRA? Bomb Palestinian refugee camps? Bomb the Michigan Militia? They're all terrorists.

Don't accuse others of ignorance and then make an ignorant statement. That's just bad manners.

John

Rick,

I thought you were taking a week off, brother!

John

Jabroni,

What do you think the UN resolutions are about? Weapons of Mass Destruction. In other, smaller words for you, bad stuff. Bad stuff that Iraq has and could end up in other terrorists hands. Terrorists do have a knack of finding and helping each other when they find a common ground. That is where the allusion to Germany and Japan comes to play. They were not united, until they found a common ground on which to help each other. We are trying to avoid a terrorist ****storm by disarming Iraq.

Have you forgotten that our War On Terrorism isn't just in the Middle East? The USA has ships and Troops all over the world fighting the same War On Terrorism. We have folks in Africa, Phillipines, hell, even in New York, fighting this War. Let's not forget that we were once AMERICANS, united in Freedom. Why must you whiney, let's love everyone, people forget that?

Hey Tarheel,
Only people with losing arguements have to result to name-calling and debasing their debating opponents.
You can ruin a perfectly good argument that way.
Lends credability to the other side.
Sorry to point that out.
Later
Homebrew