Wow… dbguru, did I hurt your feelings? I posted what I believe in my heart as right, and you label me a brainwashed, neo-con right wing wacko, who supports the coming of a future Hitler. Now, my feelings aren’t hurt, as I’m assuming your attack was an emotional one. But if I offended your delicate ideals… I apologize. I guess I should think twice before posting what I feel is right and just keep my mouth shut, while the liberal minded steer this country without opposition.

DB, I dont agree with a word you said. You say you have never seen a more dangerous government, but I say you have never seen a more dangerous world. With the attacks of 9/11, we must protect ourselves. You have to see a solution to the problem, and not only the negative aspects of the solution. The solution to not get attacked by cowardly terrorists it to stop the origin of their "brain washing". In this case diplomacy did not work, thereby war is the best option.

You speak of the upset Americans and the lack of security for your kids being the downfall of the war.. I see less terrorist as a safer world, thereby safer for my kids.. You?

Ezell

Ezell, thanks for the well thought out post. Your response brings up an interesting question.

How would the “liberal” minded handle today’s world. If liberals are against war to solve today’s issues, what do you recommend instead? And please try to be as specific as possible… don’t answer with just “diplomacy” or “pull all of our troops away from the Middle East.”

What would solve today’s issues and why would they work?

Buffalo, I spent 31 years defending this country and was involved in a number of the "police actions" or whatever you want to call it from 1972-2002. War is never the best action however sometimes it may be the only action in the time alloted. As Clausowitz said,"War is the failure of diplomacy"
My point is if you can't figure out how to deal with someone on a rational level, you will never figure them out when they are not rational. Just my .02.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him.\" -- John Stewart Mill (1806-1873)

AVB.. I agree that war is the failure of Diplomacy.. That is why we had to step in and protect ourselves. What branch were you in?

Ezell

Once a Marine, always a Marine.

----- On 11/05/2003 at 08:41PM, merlin9052 wrote: ---------------
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him.\" -- John Stewart Mill (1806-1873)
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----- ***** ----- STANDING OVATION ----- ***** -----


Merlin, I've never seen that quote before, but want to thank you for finding and posting it ... that says it all, better than any among us could hope to do ...

The JS Mill quote is not at odds with my points at all. My concerns have nothing to do with the necessities of war. If you raise this quote in response to what I'm saying as a counterpoint....you miss the point. I supported the necessity of taking action in Iraq. I'm not a liberal!!! I consider myself to be a thinking man's centrist. I refuse to stop my observations with propaganda, administration doublespeak and sound bites. I like Reuters and the BBC in addition to multiple other domestic and foreign news sources. I have an issue with the crap that started this thread. Can you truly observe and think about what is going on here? Your administration is trying very hard to prevent you from doing so. That's the problem with conservatism, it runs so counter to encouraging people to think for themselves. Just go along with the good old ways that we do things and all will be well. Don't worry about the complicated stuff. Don't think or concern yourself with issues you can't possibly play a role in. (we'll determine that role for you) We'll take care of your concerns for you. You just have to trust us and have faith in ..........(fill the blank) and all will be well. Personally I translate that into ... Shut down you brain and stop thinking so that we can do your thinking for you and all will be well because you will be under our control.

To that I SAY WAKE UP!!!!
THINK FOR YOURSELVES DAMMIT!!!!!

My thoughts and concerns are with the incompetency of how this administration is handling the war, and their continued assault on two absolutely essential pillars on which the success of this country stands. Those pillars are the Constitution and lives and welfare of the middle class. Never has an administration been so hostile and dishonest in its dealings toward these two entities. I observe that George Bush has behaved in a dishonest unintelligent way on numerous occassions and is surrounded by some very clever and manipulative power brokers who have little concern about how to govern this country effectively beyond what provides themselves political and financial gain in the short term. The 2004 election has been driving every decision since 2001 and there has been nothing else that mattered to this administration in making decisions that affect us all.

And as far as the Iraq situation is concerned..... Its been 6 months and we have not helped them establish a constitution upon which their new leadership can build a foundation for authority. What's the excuse for that??? This is the most essential element in winning the peace and this administration has made nothing but dysfunctional efforts in this area.

WAKE UP and think for yourselves for a change!!!!

More later.... DB

What's the quickest way to to not get a question answered?

Ask a liberal how they would handle the world's current events. Still haven't seen it.

DB, haven't seen you post before, but then again I rarely pay attention.
Either way, you gained some immediate attention with some valid arguments, but also with some emotional blather.

Your most recent post cries about a so-called complacency with conservatives. Yet, it was complacency that resulted in the need for our attack on Iraq. Complacency with the UN to allow Saddam to thumb his nose at the world while 10 years pass without proper arms inspection as dictated by the first Gulf War. Complacency to allow them to ignore requests and demands to adhere to the signed papers.

Don't kid yourself: A "thinking mans centrist"???
A wee bit full of yourself today? Don't take that as an insult, only as an observation.

Nobody likes to be labelled. I consider myself a "smart person's independent". Gimme a break...

You claim to think for yourself, yet you claim the conservatives "censored" the Reagan movie. How so? Or did you get that from Babs?


And lastly, you're upset with the administration because they haven't drawn up a working Constitution for Iraq in only 6 months???
6 months ain't a long time my friend. The unrest in Baghdad would tend to diminish the effectiveness of any such document even if it were presented.

I agree with certain aspects of your post, but you seem bitter about something. You slam not only the administration, but also the folks who posted this whimsical thread.

For a self-appointed "thinking man", you haven't used your head.

Your probably right about me getting a bit to emotional in my response.... This is the kind of thing much better suited for face to face rather than bulletin board discussion. If you really wish to drill down on details behind some of my assertions, I'm not sure others would have the time to pour through all that text. Certainly those who are close minded to opposing views would not give such analysis the time of day. When you pose the question on details behind the CBS censorship, there is enough material to do a 2 hour documentary on that one.....

So getting back to a more simple point Let's just say I'm very tired of the derogative name calling and slandering characterizations which constantly comes from right wingers like the one that started this thread. Also when the name calling is thrown back in their right-wing wacko neo-con-artist faces (ouch, did I really mean that) they can't take the sting very easily.

Quite frankly, I just hate close minded politics from both sides of the spectrum and would love people to start embracing awareness and intelligence in their considerations with respectful discourse and debate rather than censorship and the type of stupid characterizations and name calling that started this thread. Anyone who would circulate such crap is engaging is making a very poor attempt at humor that is just not funny unless you mindlessly follow right wing thinking. I have some serious issues with this administration and the close minded mentatlity of many of its supporters and my response in this thread is a small part of my efforts to do something about it over the next year.

Now I'm done with this thread and back to enjoying cigars... DB

Babs and Hilary both believe in the conspiracy theory about the right wing conspiracy. Was it the right wing conspiracy that forced Rush Limbaugh off ESPN or canceled Laura Schlessinger's TV show before a single episode was aired? Just wondering.

I don't think there was a conspiracy but Rush should go to jail and stay there for a decade or so.

I used to be a leftist but my wrist kept getting tired, so now I use my right.

What are you talking about? Dr. Laura's show aired. I saw it. It was ridiculously terrible. There has never been a figure so untelegenic...well, FatRush was a close second. That stoned bigot got what he deserved.

DB, I agree.
Closed minded politics is an embarassment to both parties.