I think you're kind of misunderstanding me choner... it's the principles that come from the 2nd law...

The Barrier of Thermodynamics
The two laws of thermodynamics are the most universally applicable and impregnably confirmed of all laws of science. In effect, they specify conservation in quantity and tendency to decline in quality, and so provide what seems to be an impregnable barrier to "upward" evolution. Although evolutionists have tried various ways of getting around this barrier, the fact remains that no case of true upward evolution has ever been observed to occur, nor has any proposed mechanism of evolution ever been found workable, and the thermodynamic barrier provides a good explanation as to why not.

Rifkin, Jeremy, Entropy: A New World View (New York: Viking Press, 1980), 305 pp.

"Now, however, a new world view is about to emerge, one that will eventually replace the Newtonian world machine as the organizing frame of history: the Entropy Law will preside as the ruling paradigm over the next period of history. Albert Einstein said that it is the premier law of all of science: Sir Arthur Eddington referred to it as the supreme metaphysical law of the entire universe. The Entropy Law is the second law of thermodynamics. The first law states that all matter and energy in the universe is constant, that it cannot be created or destroyed. Only its form can change but never its essence. The second law, the Entropy Law, states that matter and energy can only be changed in one direction, that is, from usable to unusable, or from available to unavailable, or from ordered to disordered."
I'm not trying to prove creation here... I just want a solid answer of one natural thing in the universe that goes from disorder to order... or spoiled food that can become fresh, or rotting wood that can become strong...
It's kind of lame to say "prove evolution or prove creation, because no one can do it and everybody knows that. You just have to choose to accept something. As for me I choose to believe in a God who not only created me because he loves me but because he loves himself and wants me to have the opportunity to spend eternity loving something greater than myself... If all there was to life was to have fun for a few years and then die and everything was pointless then honestly I'm not sure how cool that would be... Ultimately, you just have to decide what you want to believe. I just decided that I have never and never will get the opportunity to see a species change but I have seen the evidence of plenty of lives changed so I'm going to stick with that. Just my .02

passion,
No disrespect intended, but someone who doesn't understand the 2nd Law should not be trying to apply it. But I'll go further: someone who does understand it and intentionally distorts it to try to prove their point deserves no respect. I can't tell into which category the author you quoted falls --- but he certainly wouldn't have passed Thermo I in an accredited college with that line of thought.

"or rotting wood that can become strong... "
OK. Rotting wood from dead trees supplies nutrients that are use by new, growing trees. All natural. Recycling, driven by the energy from the sun. Strong from rotting, as you requested. For my next trick....

We humans are part of nature, and everything we do is "natural" in terms of this discussion, no matter how many cars we drive or TV's we own. We cannot violate the laws of thermodynamics if we tried. But we build the heat pump, which makes my house warmer (energy in it increases). We take randomly growing forests of trees and build neat, square houses in rows (order increases). I'll stop now. Does any of that violate the 2nd Law?

CWFoster,
I didn't forget you, and I'm glad you are content. But your response regarding your choices doesn't counter my point about not choosing our beliefs. Your choices were of _actions_, based on a belief in god which you cannot deny. Beliefs can certainly change, but are not chosen. (But thanks, I will have that cigar and contemplate life.)

Passion, I understand you more then you think... I just don't think you understand the applications of the laws of thermodynamics. Have you had an indept class on Physics, chemistry, or Molecular Biology?

I'm not sure where you get your reading from, but to apply the laws of thermodynamics in such a way is completely wrong. Remember, we freeze water, which loses entropy. Expanding on Coda's theme, a seedling will take nutrients and element from the ground and form cells, and a whole entire tree, which is losing entropy and randomness as well. You must understand that every chemical reaction is reversible, if given the right conditions.

choner

I believe creationism and evolution can work together.
For God, creating man from where he began on the evolutionary chain to where he is now is like building a house. You lay down the foundation, the building blocks, you add structure and form, you modify the design plans making changes as you go along, then even when "done" you still are not done, as repairs and remodeling are a never ending thing....for God to modify anything (including man) over eons is still less time than it takes a contractor to build a storage shed in someones back yard...simplistic I know...but what is a day to God..it is not our 24 hours. Thanks for listening to another opinion.

CWFoster

ok you win on the definition issue.

ferd6

i like the way you think about this subject.