Bloody, thank you for the reply.
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*DaBear said: "Bro, I've known Muslims, I've had friends who were Muslims, my wife's niece & nephew are Muslim. Not one of these people has ever tried to convert me, let alone coerce me (or worse). Have any Muslims ever tried to convert (coerce) you & if so when they failed did they get violent?
[RESPONSE: DaBear, please RE-READ the initial post on this thread: "Hadith, Vol. 1:35 teaches the Muslim that “The person who participates in Jihad in Allah’s cause…will be recompensed by Allah with a reward or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to paradise (if he is killed).” If someone believes such terrible actions will result in earthly or eternal reward, it becomes more understandable how he could take such an action.
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We covered this already, please read the whole thread. There are many verses from the Bible where God commands intolerance & violence.
That is not what the Bible is about, nor is it what the Quran is about.
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...114 verses that speak of tolerance in early Islam, but all were abrogated by one verse “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them.”’ (Q 9:5)
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In contrast, should one disregard the many teachings of love in the Bible because there are verses that command the death of those who will not worship God?
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Some of you may have Muslim neighbors or co-workers who are very friendly. First, you need to understand that most Muslims, like most Christians, have no idea what their religion actually teaches.
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Luke 19:27
(Jesus said) But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
So having read this, one could conclude "good Christians" are only "good" because they don't understand their own religion. I strongly disagree.
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Many Christians, and most Muslims, believe that Allah is the God of the Bible ... Archeologists also have shown that al-ilah was simply another name for an ancient moon-god whose name was Sin (as in Sinai and the wilderness of Sin — mentioned in the Bible). This moon-god also had another name, Baal.
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Dr. Morey (A radical) and his faulty methodology have also been well chronicled. Even some Christian theologians find his work & his outright deceit appalling. Lets put that aside for a moment and look at the transitional logic with which he tries to imply Allah = Baal.
Allah = Al-Ilah. Agreed, it is a contraction. Al-Alih translates to "the God" or "the Deity"
Al-Ilah = Sin. I disagree. Morey claims Sin (moon-god) was the high-god of the pagans. Sin also had a father, Attar. If one is considering the entity "Al-Ilah" as opposed to the title "Al-Ilah", ("Lord" vs "the Lord") and trying to equivocate him with Sin, how can a (monotheistic) God have a father? (If we use a trinitarian arguement, then the debate becomes is Christianity truly monotheistic, which is another topic)
About Baal. "Baal" literally translated to "Lord" or "Master" or "Owner" or "God", depending on the region within which it was used. Baal was worshipped by the Semites, the Canaanites, the Carthagenians, the Phoenecians, and a host of other cultures to include the ancient Jews. Ritual sacrifice, mostly burnt offerings,(mostly animal but occasionally human as well) was indeed practiced.
If we're going to talk Qabalism, we need to discuss "El" as well. He was the Canaanites chief god. "El" translated simply to "God". El was the "father of humanity" and "creator of all created things". He was the "creator" god of the Canaanite pantheon, and the head of the divine council. (likened to Kronos)
Now, in the Judeo-Christian Bible God the father is referred to by many names: Jehovah(Yahveh), Adonai, El, Elohim, Elohe, as well as many compund names created by adding on a trait to one of the aforementioned names. (ie. Jehovah El Emeth = Lord God of Truth).
Does this mean God = El = a pagan god? No, but it follows the same pseudo-transitory logic.
There is also nothing inherently sinister with regards to the "cresent" symbol. The Muslim calendar is lunar based, as is the Jewish calendar. We see the Christian "fish" symbol all over the place, from vans to vestments, but I don't think Christians worship fish or a fish god. Where in the Quran or the Haddith does it state "Allah" is the moon-god? Usually when you worship a God, you don't hide his attributes.
One more note. It's pretty clear Dr. Morey was trying to imply Allah = Beelzebul/Beezelbub (Baal-zebub)
to convince Christians that Islam equates to "Devil worship", and Muslims are followers of Satan.
That's what I was referring to WRT evil interpretations of faith.
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Oh really? All that you have to do is open your eyes/ears and see what is reported by the mostly liberal-leaning media. Do you see evidence of Muslim persecution by Christians. Or is it the other way around from Sudan to Indonesia?
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My eyes/ears usually work ok.
This is a taken from a U.S. state department report on religious freedom (9/99):
(In addition to China) the report highlights:
# In Saudi Arabia, there were instances of arbitrary detention of members of the Shia sect, a minority Islamic grouping. Non-Muslims are required to worship privately.
# In Sudan, the ongoing civil war provided the basis for severe persecution of Christians and of Muslims who deviate from officially approved practices.
# In Serbia, hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Kosovo province were killed or forced from their homes by the country's security.
# In Myanmar, the former Burma, security forces destroyed or looted churches and mosques, mostly in areas where anti-government rebels are active.
Note line 3. Ethnic-cleansing by the Serbian Orthodox Christian majority. Political, absolutely, but the Albanian Muslim who is killed by the Serbian Christian may certainly see it as religious in nature. Again, does this mean Christianity is evil? No, absolutely not.
I never said there was no persecution, I said examples can be sited both ways. Most of these are political in nature. Throughout history, when groups vie for power they often use religion to justify it & incite the masses.
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:I don't believe that the majority of muslims committing terrorist acts & sawing off heads in Iraq are wahhabi. Most are Shiites and Sunnis (Bathist party). Remember the adults AND children who danced and laughed with total glee as they barbecued and mutilated the contractors and then hanged their remains from a bridge?
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Now we're talking about atrocities committed in an occupied country. The CIA stated they had a "high degree of confidence" that it was Zarqawi himself who read the statement & carried out the beheadings that were broadcast on television, and that Zarqawi's network is considered the main source of kidnappings, bomb attacks and assassination attempts in Iraq. As for the contractors hanging from the bridge, I can't say whether it was done by people from his network or not, I don't know.
I do know that we (a predominantly Christian nation) have killed over an estimated 200,000 Iraqi civilians. (predominantly Muslims) Yes the mutilations and murders are disgusting & reprehensible, but should we therefore condemn a whole religion and over a billion people worldwide for the actions of a few?
With that attitude, how can we expect all the families of the dead Iraqi civilians to see that this war isn't a holy war? Christianity is not evil because we waged war on Iraq. Islam is not evil because some of it's followers pervert it to justify their own agenda.
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Mainstream muslims? Where do we find these open-minded people? In Holland, Spain, Lybia?
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Some of us can't find them anywhere I guess, and that's truly sad.
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How you can equate the teachings of Jesus Christ (the logos) with the epileptic (rambling) rantings of a violent warrior who was a pedophile, I'll never know.
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Sorry bro, I have no answer for that, the statement speaks for itself.
