frankj1
Sunday, August 19, 2012 1:31:19 PM

We supported Sadat who was a dictator and got the Egypt-Israel peace treaty signed. Now Egypt is a true democracy you should want to support them even more!

HockeyDad wrote:

I am agreeing (I think you agree) that money to Egytian dictators was not so wise, I say less wise than to Israel...you can argue that neither makes sense, but you seem to feel support for Israel makes even less sense. Sadat needed a little fear to play nicely, and he ended up proving he was brave enough to do the right thing, regardless of why. But I'm not sure where the feeling that Egypt is some reliable ally is coming from...certainly compared to Israel, certainly today.

I do support democracy elsewhere, Egypt included. It remains to be seen if their brand of democracy is anywhere close to the true style adhered to by Israel among many other free nations.

Early returns show that the freedom fighters have in fact been tossed aside in this government as Muslim Brotherhood and military jockey for position. You liking that? You a little concerned about the peace treaty?

frankj1
Sunday, August 19, 2012 2:01:06 PM

You have your timeline wrong and are confusing the 1967 war with the 1973 war and the Camp David Accords years later.

The 1973 war stopped because it was dangerously close to going nuclear.

HockeyDad wrote:

I stand corrected.

I did confuse the two wars. Damn memory, shoulda googled. It took longer than the six days in '67 the second time because Egypt had become fairly well entrenched as Syria tried to keep Israel tied up and retake the Golan Heights. The ol' hit 'em high/hit 'em low trick. But Israel regrouped, and it took about another extra week to be knocking on the front door of Damascus and Cairo.

The Arab world had been disillusioned and humiliated by Israel twice in 6 years, but Israel did learn this could not go on forever. Treaties ensued, but never would have happened if the Arab world had not been humbled..and scared.

In hindsight, one must ask would Russia and the US have really gone nuke if Israel had finished the job? But finishing the job defines the heart of the aggressor, the ones who want to drive the other out of existence. And there is absolutely no doubt that Egypt and Syria had no intention of stopping if Israel had not regrouped.

Peace brother.

Frank

HockeyDad
Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:16:04 PM

among the Saudis et al, there was an Egytian citizen or two involved in 9/11...I am saying that is not enough to indict the Egytian government but left out there floating as a statement it could be construed as such...much like you tossing statements and allowing them to be inferred as love for us by Egyt.

frankj1 wrote:

The Egyptian government and military loved the USA. I know this doesn't play into the spin that Israel is our only ally in the region and deserves free money because they do all kinds of wonderful things for the world. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE....they all love the USA as well. I know, it doesn't fit the story you want to sell.

HockeyDad
Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:22:03 PM
[quote=frankjI do support democracy elsewhere, Egypt included. It remains to be seen if their brand of democracy is anywhere close to the true style adhered to by Israel among many other free nations.

Early returns show that the freedom fighters have in fact been tossed aside in this government as Muslim Brotherhood and military jockey for position. You liking that? You a little concerned about the peace treaty?

If you support democracy then you will have to stand an applaud if the Muslim Brotherhood becomes the ruling party. Democracy is a bit overrated sometimes!

I think it is perfectly possible that Egypt could establish a brand of democracy just like the style in Israel.

In a related note:

In the latest of several similar incidents, police detained four women from the Women of the Wall activist organization at the Western Wall plaza Sunday morning for wearing prayer shawls.

The women were questioned for more than two hours and then brought to the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court, where they were served with a restraining order forbidding them from entering the Western Wall plaza for 50 days.

Israeli law, upheld by the Supreme Court, stipulates that it is forbidden to conduct a religious ceremony “contrary to accepted practice” at a holy site, or one that may “hurt the feelings of other worshipers.”

This law is interpreted to include women performing religious practices at the Western Wall traditionally done by men in Orthodox Jewish practice, such as reading from a Torah scroll, wearing tefillin or a tallit, or blowing a shofar.

Approximately 50 women from the organization assembled in the women’s section of the plaza Sunday morning for the prayer service for the new month, many of whom wore prayer shawls, or tallitot, traditionally worn by men.

The four women who were detained were wearing black and white or plain white tallitot, whereas the rest of the group were wearing more colorful prayer shawls.

The police generally tolerate the wearing of the decorative tallitot by women, and only take exception to women wearing the black and white, blue and white or completely white shawls, which they view as being the preserve of male worshipers.

Israel's wonderful brand of democracy smells a lot like theocracy.

HockeyDad
Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:45:07 PM

The Arab world had been disillusioned and humiliated by Israel twice in 6 years, but Israel did learn this could not go on forever. Treaties ensued, but never would have happened if the Arab world had not been humbled..and scared.

In hindsight, one must ask would Russia and the US have really gone nuke if Israel had finished the job? But finishing the job defines the heart of the aggressor, the ones who want to drive the other out of existence. And there is absolutely no doubt that Egypt and Syria had no intention of stopping if Israel had not regrouped.

frankj1 wrote:

You may not realize it but in the Arab world the 1973 war was considered a moral victory because they fought Israel to a stalemate. They weren't humbled or scared. Two wars in Lebanon that were clusterf&%ks for Israel have emboldened them even more.

How could the war have ended....there a number of theories out there that the Soviets moved nuclear weapons to Egypt and had Cairo fallen, Israel would have been taken out by Egyptian SCUDs armed with Russian nukes.

Russia and the US would not have gone to war.

rfenst
Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:19:07 PM

In a related note:

In the latest of several similar incidents, police detained four women from the Women of the Wall activist organization at the Western Wall plaza Sunday morning for wearing prayer shawls.

The women were questioned for more than two hours and then brought to the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court, where they were served with a restraining order forbidding them from entering the Western Wall plaza for 50 days.

Israeli law, upheld by the Supreme Court, stipulates that it is forbidden to conduct a religious ceremony “contrary to accepted practice” at a holy site, or one that may “hurt the feelings of other worshipers.”

This law is interpreted to include women performing religious practices at the Western Wall traditionally done by men in Orthodox Jewish practice, such as reading from a Torah scroll, wearing tefillin or a tallit, or blowing a shofar.

Approximately 50 women from the organization assembled in the women’s section of the plaza Sunday morning for the prayer service for the new month, many of whom wore prayer shawls, or tallitot, traditionally worn by men.

The four women who were detained were wearing black and white or plain white tallitot, whereas the rest of the group were wearing more colorful prayer shawls.

The police generally tolerate the wearing of the decorative tallitot by women, and only take exception to women wearing the black and white, blue and white or completely white shawls, which they view as being the preserve of male worshipers.

Israel's wonderful brand of democracy smells a lot like theocracy.

HockeyDad wrote:

What you write about is unacceptable to most American Jews. In fact, we find it abhorrent. But, we are not Israeli and do not make or agree with those laws. Thankfully, IMO, centuries of such unfair religious law are changing, albeit slowly. Compared to our form of egalitarian, non-denominational democracy, Israeli law as stated above is antiquated and unlawful. But, I wonder how Israeli's feel about it. No sense complaining if they support such a law. But, Americans have an entirely different different history and the culture and the central theme of our nation is not the same as Israel's. The difference in women's' rights in Islam and perhaps Christianity haven't been brought up. I think you are just throwing this unpleasant fact out to heap criticism and keep the arguments going. It took this nation almost 200 years before blacks were allowed to vote and more than a century before women were allowed to vote. But, in time, we changed. So too will Israel.

frankj1
Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:50:34 PM

If you support democracy then you will have to stand an applaud if the Muslim Brotherhood becomes the ruling party. Democracy is a bit overrated sometimes!

I think it is perfectly possible that Egypt could establish a brand of democracy just like the style in Israel.

In a related note:

In the latest of several similar incidents, police detained four women from the Women of the Wall activist organization at the Western Wall plaza Sunday morning for wearing prayer shawls.

The women were questioned for more than two hours and then brought to the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court, where they were served with a restraining order forbidding them from entering the Western Wall plaza for 50 days.

Israeli law, upheld by the Supreme Court, stipulates that it is forbidden to conduct a religious ceremony “contrary to accepted practice” at a holy site, or one that may “hurt the feelings of other worshipers.”

This law is interpreted to include women performing religious practices at the Western Wall traditionally done by men in Orthodox Jewish practice, such as reading from a Torah scroll, wearing tefillin or a tallit, or blowing a shofar.

Approximately 50 women from the organization assembled in the women’s section of the plaza Sunday morning for the prayer service for the new month, many of whom wore prayer shawls, or tallitot, traditionally worn by men.

The four women who were detained were wearing black and white or plain white tallitot, whereas the rest of the group were wearing more colorful prayer shawls.

The police generally tolerate the wearing of the decorative tallitot by women, and only take exception to women wearing the black and white, blue and white or completely white shawls, which they view as being the preserve of male worshipers.

Israel's wonderful brand of democracy smells a lot like theocracy.

rfenst wrote:

What you write about is unacceptable to most American Jews. In fact, we find it abhorrent. But, we are not Israeli and do not make or agree with those laws. Thankfully, IMO, centuries of such unfair religious law are changing, albeit slowly. Compared to our form of egalitarian, non-denominational democracy, Israeli law as stated above is antiquated and unlawful. But, I wonder how Israeli's feel about it. No sense complaining if they support such a law. But, Americans have an entirely different different history and the culture and the central theme of our nation is not the same as Israel's. The difference in women's' rights in Islam and perhaps Christianity haven't been brought up. I think you are just throwing this unpleasant fact out to heap criticism and keep the arguments going. It took this nation almost 200 years before blacks were allowed to vote and more than a century before women were allowed to vote. But, in time, we changed. So too will Israel.

better said than I would have answered. Of course it is unacceptable, the whole idea of laws dedicated to an ultra branch of Judaism is something that does not fly with true lovers of a democratic and free state. Still literally centuries ahead of the countries that HD listed as loving us though. The world would be a better place if the Saudis et al could get to where Israel is now.

France does not allow Muslim women to wear head coverings btw.

frankj1
Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:10:40 PM

You may not realize it but in the Arab world the 1973 war was considered a moral victory because they fought Israel to a stalemate. They weren't humbled or scared. Two wars in Lebanon that were clusterf&%ks for Israel have emboldened them even more.

the moral victory was just about the first several days, and even then not for Syria. They were handled swiftly, allowing Israel to focus on Egypt, who started very well by distributing misinformation and attacking on Yom Kippur. But their inability to keep from being pushed back to Cairo resulted in Sadat losing support. His extremely brave and proper tacit recognition of Israel's right to exist (he accepted an invitation to come to Israel as part of the negotiations, unthinkable in the Arab world) resulted in a peace treaty and also sealed his sad fate.

How could the war have ended....there a number of theories out there that the Soviets moved nuclear weapons to Egypt and had Cairo fallen, Israel would have been taken out by Egyptian SCUDs armed with Russian nukes.

Russia and the US would not have gone to war.

HockeyDad wrote:

Theories are theories, may be there is some validity, we do not know. But we do know that Russia backed down when it becane obvious the US took them seriously. Not a theory, but a fact that their policy became that they did not feel that Syria and Egypt were worth a showdown. They reluctantly ceded much of their sway in the Middle East.

CWFoster
Monday, August 20, 2012 2:18:10 AM

Theories are theories, may be there is some validity, we do not know. But we do know that Russia backed down when it becane obvious the US took them seriously. Not a theory, but a fact that their policy became that they did not feel that Syria and Egypt were worth a showdown. They reluctantly ceded much of their sway in the Middle East.

frankj1 wrote:

Good observation, but remember, nothing happens in a vacuum.

WHO was President in 1973? -Richard M. Nixon

WHAT else was going on? -Nixon was bringing the Vietnam War to an end by forcing the N. Vietnamese back to the bargaining table by bombing Hanoi and mining Haiphong Harbor.

Yes, Ford the bumbler was next and then the joke that was Carter, but the Russians had no idea of that in 1973, of course they wouldn't have "bet the farm" on trying to escalate in the Middle East.

CWFoster
Monday, August 20, 2012 2:56:30 AM

If you support democracy then you will have to stand an applaud if the Muslim Brotherhood becomes the ruling party. Democracy is a bit overrated sometimes!

I think it is perfectly possible that Egypt could establish a brand of democracy just like the style in Israel.

In a related note:

In the latest of several similar incidents, police detained four women from the Women of the Wall activist organization at the Western Wall plaza Sunday morning for wearing prayer shawls.

The women were questioned for more than two hours and then brought to the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court, where they were served with a restraining order forbidding them from entering the Western Wall plaza for 50 days.

Israeli law, upheld by the Supreme Court, stipulates that it is forbidden to conduct a religious ceremony “contrary to accepted practice” at a holy site, or one that may “hurt the feelings of other worshipers.”

This law is interpreted to include women performing religious practices at the Western Wall traditionally done by men in Orthodox Jewish practice, such as reading from a Torah scroll, wearing tefillin or a tallit, or blowing a shofar.

Approximately 50 women from the organization assembled in the women’s section of the plaza Sunday morning for the prayer service for the new month, many of whom wore prayer shawls, or tallitot, traditionally worn by men.

The four women who were detained were wearing black and white or plain white tallitot, whereas the rest of the group were wearing more colorful prayer shawls.

The police generally tolerate the wearing of the decorative tallitot by women, and only take exception to women wearing the black and white, blue and white or completely white shawls, which they view as being the preserve of male worshipers.

Israel's wonderful brand of democracy smells a lot like theocracy.

rfenst wrote:

What you write about is unacceptable to most American Jews. In fact, we find it abhorrent. But, we are not Israeli and do not make or agree with those laws. Thankfully, IMO, centuries of such unfair religious law are changing, albeit slowly. Compared to our form of egalitarian, non-denominational democracy, Israeli law as stated above is antiquated and unlawful. But, I wonder how Israeli's feel about it. No sense complaining if they support such a law. But, Americans have an entirely different different history and the culture and the central theme of our nation is not the same as Israel's. The difference in women's' rights in Islam and perhaps Christianity haven't been brought up. I think you are just throwing this unpleasant fact out to heap criticism and keep the arguments going. It took this nation almost 200 years before blacks were allowed to vote and more than a century before women were allowed to vote. But, in time, we changed. So too will Israel.

Not a big fan of Democracy myself, nor were the Founders. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch. What our Founders gave us was a Democraticly Elected Representative Republic. Read "The 5000 Year Leap" It's educational without being too dry. It cover point by point by point how the Founders arrived at the form of government we were given. note how I keep saying "they left to us" and "We were given". What we've made of it is a total mess, and bears only a superficial resemblance to what was intended. One of my favorite quotes was from Thomas jefferson in regards if someone should have been allowed to do some thing or other, and he said "If it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg, why should I care?" (paraphrased) There are TWO types of tyranny, the tyranny of the minority over the majority (think a small ruling party of nobles or Party Aperachiks (sp?) that make the decicions for the commoners or proliteriat, depending on which political lexicon you choose to use. A Democracy is evil, a Democracy says "there are fewer of you than us, and we vote you give us your stuff and you work as our slaves". You can bash Israel all you want, but there ARE a few Palestinian Arabs in the Knesset. How many jews are there on the ruling Council in Egypt? in Syria?, Saudi Arabia? Lebanon? Iraq?, Iran?, Libya? Morroco, Yemen, Oman? Baharain, UAE, Dubai? Go ahead, i'm sure it will take awhile for you to count them all!

(crickets chirping)

You think that maybe.... just MAYBE that MIGHT be indicative of the Israelis trying to have a government that is relevant to THEIR faith, and at the same time, tries to respect the sensibilities of others, as long as they aren't shooting rockets into their cities?

Take that one step further... you think that MAYBE that might be indicative that ALL those Arab countries have no concern whatsoever for anyones sensibilities OTHER than their own, and they have little if any tolerance for others?

OKAY ONE MORE STEP, now this is a BIG one, so get ready! you think Maybe.... POSSIBLY, THAT difference could make any comparison of moral equivalence between the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood backed government and Israels parlimentary system to be propagandistic and intellectually bankrupt? I'll let you go have a cigar now, you probably have a headache.

rfenst
Monday, August 20, 2012 9:09:32 AM

What you write about is unacceptable to most American Jews. In fact, we find it abhorrent. But, we are not Israeli and do not make or agree with those laws. Thankfully, IMO, centuries of such unfair religious law are changing, albeit slowly. Compared to our form of egalitarian, non-denominational democracy, Israeli law as stated above is antiquated and unlawful. But, I wonder how Israeli's feel about it. No sense complaining if they support such a law. But, Americans have an entirely different different history and the culture and the central theme of our nation is not the same as Israel's. The difference in women's' rights in Islam and perhaps Christianity haven't been brought up. I think you are just throwing this unpleasant fact out to heap criticism and keep the arguments going. It took this nation almost 200 years before blacks were allowed to vote and more than a century before women were allowed to vote. But, in time, we changed. So too will Israel.

rfenst wrote:

We have a little confusion here. The above was my comment to HD's facetious criticism of Israeli religious law law and women's rights to worship as they please where they please.

HockeyDad
Monday, August 20, 2012 9:45:36 AM

What you write about is unacceptable to most American Jews. In fact, we find it abhorrent. But, we are not Israeli and do not make or agree with those laws. Thankfully, IMO, centuries of such unfair religious law are changing, albeit slowly. Compared to our form of egalitarian, non-denominational democracy, Israeli law as stated above is antiquated and unlawful. But, I wonder how Israeli's feel about it. No sense complaining if they support such a law. But, Americans have an entirely different different history and the culture and the central theme of our nation is not the same as Israel's. The difference in women's' rights in Islam and perhaps Christianity haven't been brought up. I think you are just throwing this unpleasant fact out to heap criticism and keep the arguments going. It took this nation almost 200 years before blacks were allowed to vote and more than a century before women were allowed to vote. But, in time, we changed. So too will Israel.

rfenst wrote:

better said than I would have answered. Of course it is unacceptable, the whole idea of laws dedicated to an ultra branch of Judaism is something that does not fly with true lovers of a democratic and free state. Still literally centuries ahead of the countries that HD listed as loving us though. The world would be a better place if the Saudis et al could get to where Israel is now.

France does not allow Muslim women to wear head coverings btw.

frankj1 wrote:

I merely point out that what we like to claim as a true democracy in Israel is actually much closer to a Jewish theocracy with some resemblance of free elections. Calling Israel a democracy and yet the Jewish state at the same time is a farce. the US wasn't a great place for blacks 200 years ago. Israel wasn't a great place for women yesterday. Saying at least they're better than the Saudis doesn't cut it.

We hate Iranian theocracy who also has free elections, we love Israeli theocracy.....we hate North Korean and Cuban dictatorships yet we love Egyptian dictatorships and Persian Gulf kingdoms. We can't justify giving away US taxpayer money just based on supporting "democracy". We pushed for democracy in Lebanon, Palestine, and Egypt and now don't like what we got.

HockeyDad
Monday, August 20, 2012 10:15:32 AM

You can bash Israel all you want, but there ARE a few Palestinian Arabs in the Knesset. How many Jews are there on the ruling Council in Egypt? in Syria?, Saudi Arabia? Lebanon? Iraq?, Iran?, Libya? Morocco, Yemen, Oman? Baharain, UAE, Dubai? Go ahead, I'm sure it will take awhile for you to count them all!

You think that maybe.... just MAYBE that MIGHT be indicative of the Israelis trying to have a government that is relevant to THEIR faith, and at the same time, tries to respect the sensibilities of others, as long as they aren't shooting rockets into their cities?

Take that one step further... you think that MAYBE that might be indicative that ALL those Arab countries have no concern whatsoever for anyones sensibilities OTHER than their own, and they have little if any tolerance for others?

OKAY ONE MORE STEP, now this is a BIG one, so get ready! you think Maybe.... POSSIBLY, THAT difference could make any comparison of moral equivalence between the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood backed government and Israels parlimentary system to be propagandistic and intellectually bankrupt? I'll let you go have a cigar now, you probably have a headache.

CWFoster wrote:

If you want to look at how many Jews are in those various governments, first you have to look at how many Jews live in those countries. How many Jews are in the governments of Japan, Argentina, Brazil, etc. You could apply that same line of distraction to various US state legislatures.

You realize a government "relevant to their faith" is a theocracy, right? At a minimum it sure isn't a western democracy that we like to push all over the world.

By virtue of pure demographics, Israel has Arab members in the government but at a minority level that keeps them powerless. Lebanon has Druze Christians in the government but at a minority level that keeps them powerless. Israel will never annex the West Bank or Gaza because of the huge concern that the Muslims will out-breed the Jews and Jewish immigration and would eventually take over the government through its "democracy". Anybody want to disagree and call for a one-state solution? Wait for crickets for that one!

I haven't made any comparison of moral equivalence between the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood backed government and Israels parliamentary system. I made a comparison between Egypt under Sadat and Mubarak dictatorships that we loved and supported with M1 Abrams tanks, Apache helicopters, and F-16s. I don't know what the wonderful democracy that we were slow to support will bring but we eventually threw Mubarak under a bus.

Remember, I said cut US taxpayer funding to both Israel and Egypt, don't send more US teenagers off to fight wars for either of them, build a wall around the entire region and fill it will sea water from the Mediterranean. They've had 3000 years and can't get along so we should end the US arrogance of thinking we can fix it.

rfenst
Monday, August 20, 2012 11:05:58 AM

I merely point out that what we like to claim as a true democracy in Israel is actually much closer to a Jewish theocracy with some resemblance of free elections. Calling Israel a democracy and yet the Jewish state at the same time is a farce. the US wasn't a great place for blacks 200 years ago. Israel wasn't a great place for women yesterday. Saying at least they're better than the Saudis doesn't cut it.

We hate Iranian theocracy who also has free elections, we love Israeli theocracy.....we hate North Korean and Cuban dictatorships yet we love Egyptian dictatorships and Persian Gulf kingdoms. We can't justify giving away US taxpayer money just based on supporting "democracy". We pushed for democracy in Lebanon, Palestine, and Egypt and now don't like what we got.

HockeyDad wrote:

Many laws of the state of Israel are determined by certain sects and majorities' interpretations of religious law. There is also civil law unrelated to religion. That does not me that Israel is not a democracy. It's leaders are elected. Its laws can be changed by its legislature, courts and citizens. Ultimately, the power is in the hands of the people, who elect their leaders. How is that not a democracy or at least the closest there is to one?

We don't hate Iranian theocracy because it is a theocracy. We hate it because that Theocratic leaders' clash with American interests, arm our enemies and our allies' enemies and threaten destruction to them and us. Same goes for the dictatorships you listed.

"Democracy" is the simple, seemingly plausible explanation to the American people for American policy towards other countries. Many, if not most "buy" it. I know you don't. Neither do I. It's a load of crap. It's a cover or a shill, if you will, to get American citizens on board with the plan. We support other countries because they are our allies and we believe we benefit from the support we give now and will in the future. That's all there really is to it. Nothing more. And, when all things are considered, if we get our money's worth, then I don't give a crap who we buy off.

Pushing for democracy is a ludicrous American fallacy. Democracy only works were the culture(s) of the people fit with it. Same with socialism and comunism.

DrMaddVibe
Monday, August 20, 2012 12:28:12 PM

Not a big fan of Democracy myself, nor were the Founders. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch. What our Founders gave us was a Democraticly Elected Representative Republic. Read "The 5000 Year Leap" It's educational without being too dry. It cover point by point by point how the Founders arrived at the form of government we were given. note how I keep saying "they left to us" and "We were given". What we've made of it is a total mess, and bears only a superficial resemblance to what was intended. One of my favorite quotes was from Thomas jefferson in regards if someone should have been allowed to do some thing or other, and he said "If it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg, why should I care?" (paraphrased) There are TWO types of tyranny, the tyranny of the minority over the majority (think a small ruling party of nobles or Party Aperachiks (sp?) that make the decicions for the commoners or proliteriat, depending on which political lexicon you choose to use. A Democracy is evil, a Democracy says "there are fewer of you than us, and we vote you give us your stuff and you work as our slaves". You can bash Israel all you want, but there ARE a few Palestinian Arabs in the Knesset. How many jews are there on the ruling Council in Egypt? in Syria?, Saudi Arabia? Lebanon? Iraq?, Iran?, Libya? Morroco, Yemen, Oman? Baharain, UAE, Dubai? Go ahead, i'm sure it will take awhile for you to count them all!

CWFoster wrote:

WONDERFUL point.

People get confused with the terms "democracy" and "republic".

The only thing I'd add to this is that we paid for ours with blood. The crazy expectation that we can somehow "export" Freedom and Democracy is sheer lunacy. We cannot "share" ours. Other nations can model themselves after what we created.

Then the craziness of PAYING other nations for what??? Cooperation? That's like paying your kids an allowance to eat vegetables or make their bed!

Anyone ever look into the USS Liberty? This is a strong ally? THIS is what we've paid millions for?

PULL THE PLUG.

It's really awesome when you have another nation paying for all the military stuff so you can funnel money into other R&D while we go broke subsidizing attacks against our military...our nation...our taxpayers.

CWFoster
Monday, August 20, 2012 1:07:30 PM

WONDERFUL point.

People get confused with the terms "democracy" and "republic".

The only thing I'd add to this is that we paid for ours with blood. The crazy expectation that we can somehow "export" Freedom and Democracy is sheer lunacy. We cannot "share" ours. Other nations can model themselves after what we created.

Then the craziness of PAYING other nations for what??? Cooperation? That's like paying your kids an allowance to eat vegetables or make their bed!

Anyone ever look into the USS Liberty? This is a strong ally? THIS is what we've paid millions for?

PULL THE PLUG.

It's really awesome when you have another nation paying for all the military stuff so you can funnel money into other R&D while we go broke subsidizing attacks against our military...our nation...our taxpayers.

DrMaddVibe wrote:

As to the USS Liberty incident, I've read a detailed account of it, and heard it refuted by the victims. Given the choice, and the knowlege of how governments and bureauracracies operate, I tend to believe the explaination.

The israeli government was informed of the Operations of the USS Liberty (an ELINT intelligence gathering ship) in the Eastern Med in waters closly adjoining Israel. The ops were supposed to end on a certain day. the outbreak of hostilities between Israel and her neighbors convinced Pentagon analysts that the Liberty should be extended on station to get a better look and listen to possibly more advanced Russian built communications gear, radars and guidance systems than previously monitored, and notification was sent through channels to the Israelis of the operational extension. "Channels" included the US Naval attache at the US embassy, who seemingly was busy. A day or so after the ORIGINALLY scheduled departure of the Liberty from the Area of Operations (AO) the Israelis noticed electreonic signals emanating from the area the Liberty had been in. Further there were rumors that the Egyptians may be trying to launch coastal attacks from ship based commandos, and using Russian supplied ships to gather intelliegence, aircraft were dispatched to investigate. They located the suspect ship, but noted an American flag at the masthead. Pilots notified their controllers of this. A call was made to the Naval Attache who was asked about the USS Liberty's schedule. Without checking his in basket for recent message traffic he assured the IDF that the Liberty was well clear of the area. The Israelis, suspecting an Egyptian "false flag" operation, made another pass over the ship. The decision was made that regardless of the flag, they had been informed by duly authorized representatives of the US government that there were NO US ships in the AO, therefore the aircraft were given weapons release authority. The rest of the story is a confused mess of Israeli planes passing at high speed strafing and shooting up what they had been assured was a legitimate target, and American sailors trying desparately to wave off an attack by aircraft bearing supposedly friendly markings. In retrospect, it make sound shady, but think about it. I've heard a HUNDRED stories about the run up to Pearl Harbor, about misinterpreted intel, un relayed information, and failures to put 2 and 2 together that make THIS seem clear and concise!

DrMaddVibe
Monday, August 20, 2012 1:58:33 PM
A little birdy told me that when you're employing ECM or ECCM...the "footprint" is massive and gives your position away. ESPECIALLY when you're a floating jammer...with HUGE identifing numbers on both sides of it...that "should've" given it away as a "friendly"...sad but no.

The "official" statements don't past the muster.

frankj1
Monday, August 20, 2012 5:15:38 PM
[quote=DrMaddVibe]WONDERFUL point.

People get confused with the terms "democracy" and "republic".

The only thing I'd add to this is that we paid for ours with blood. The crazy expectation that we can somehow "export" Freedom and Democracy is sheer lunacy. We cannot "share" ours. Other nations can model themselves after what we created.

quote]

also a nice point...count me among the lazy using the easy term "democracy". I do know better.

But despite the popular notion of some here, Israel has also paid for theirs with blood, certainly with help too, but lots of blood, repeatedly. Allow me to point out the help America received from France, among others, early on

You are also correct that we can not share nor export our ways any more than a gun can truly change the hearts and minds of others...they must want it badly enough to sacrifice, like the US, like Israel, others may be coming aboard. But they won't know to love it/model themselves after it without exposure to it.

frankj1
Monday, August 20, 2012 5:35:36 PM
CWFoster wrote:

You can bash Israel all you want, but there ARE a few Palestinian Arabs in the Knesset. How many Jews are there on the ruling Council in Egypt? in Syria?, Saudi Arabia? Lebanon? Iraq?, Iran?, Libya? Morocco, Yemen, Oman? Baharain, UAE, Dubai? Go ahead, I'm sure it will take awhile for you to count them all!

You think that maybe.... just MAYBE that MIGHT be indicative of the Israelis trying to have a government that is relevant to THEIR faith, and at the same time, tries to respect the sensibilities of others, as long as they aren't shooting rockets into their cities?

Take that one step further... you think that MAYBE that might be indicative that ALL those Arab countries have no concern whatsoever for anyones sensibilities OTHER than their own, and they have little if any tolerance for others?

OKAY ONE MORE STEP, now this is a BIG one, so get ready! you think Maybe.... POSSIBLY, THAT difference could make any comparison of moral equivalence between the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood backed government and Israels parlimentary system to be propagandistic and intellectually bankrupt? I'll let you go have a cigar now, you probably have a headache.

HD WROTE:

If you want to look at how many Jews are in those various governments, first you have to look at how many Jews live in those countries. How many Jews are in the governments of Japan, Argentina, Brazil, etc. You could apply that same line of distraction to various US state legislatures.

I don't buy your comparison at all, HD. Palestinians have it tough getting through checkpoints etc, there is profiling I am sure, boo hoo, they do blow up busses and markets etc. But they and other Arabs can become citizens, go to schools, get elected, vote, work, and live in Israel. I believe they can and do serve in the military too.Without looking it up, I'd bet there are a few Jews in the governments of Brazil and Argentina, maybe not Japan, but it is difficult to become an elected official in nations that: A may not have many if any elected officials at all, B may have expelled Jews from their land, and C if not expelled, not allowed to step foot in the capital and/or major cities...like Mecca for just one example. Way off the mark comparing population percentages of Jews in Syria and Argentina as your excuse... And CW referenced the ruling council, not simply elected officials. There may also be many duly elected Palestinian aldermen in Israel, though...j/k

teedubbya
Monday, August 20, 2012 6:49:33 PM
What's the frequency Kenneth?
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