Not sure you understand the definition of a strawman argument.
Tail claimed that illegals shouldn't be here.
I pointed out it's not the local government's problem and they're just trying to run a city/state. That's not a "strawman" that's literally in response to what he said.
If you believe it's a strawman, then his statement couldn't be relevant to the conversation at hand.

victor809 wrote:

How does that make my argument a "strawman"?

"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent"

I addressed tail's actual argument, that "we should get rid of all illegals" by pointing out that wasn't a local government's responsibility really.

victor809 wrote:

We sure pick and choose when supporting States rights.

teedubbya wrote:

See above. You pounced quicker than I could correct my mistake.

Abrignac wrote:

are there any stats showing how much these illegal workers are paying in federal, state, and local taxes?
we'd need both sides of the tax equation to determine how much (or if) they are costing us...not even factoring what they contribute (spend) to the economy. Though as the laws are currently written, I'd still like to see those doing the hiring paying a price.

But would these jobs get done by our citizens, even for a guaranteed minimum wage? Doubt it. This is not a simple issue.

It wouldn't be possible, but if there was a way to let in x amount for x amount of time from x many countries to do the work Americans refuse to do, we'd get our fruit and veggies at the supermarket and stuff, and our elderly citizens' butts wiped, and all the other unglamorous jobs we are above doing.

It worked reasonably well with visa stuff for restaurant and hotel jobs in seasonal vacation spots, many young adults from Ireland and Bulgaria and other countries that come and go...foreign students and others wanting to see America but needing to work their way across it.

frankj1 wrote:

Short answer...you're talking about undocumented workers. Most with forged, fake and stolen IDs. Most are sending money back home via Western Union and other wire transfer services. That's why I mentioned in another thread about taxing foreign transfers massively to offset this loopbole. Getting an accurate count or dollar amount is impossible. The article I posted states that there people willing to step up and do these jobs.

DrMaddVibe wrote:

not going out of my way to seem ignorant on the topic, but even if presenting fake ID's etc, wouldn't the employers still withhold fed and state taxes?

frankj1 wrote:

Without a SSN, how are these taxes reported to the IRS? If I’m not mistaken state tax withholding documents are tied to one’s SSN as well.

Every employee is required by federal law as dictated by regulations to complete an I-9 form. One cannot legally complete this form without proof of citizenship or appropriate immigration documents. Illegals cannot present either. As a result, absent forged documents witch is a federal crime, illegals are paid in cash and no income taxes are collected. Yet, they can get free medical care by going to a hospital which is required by law to treat and/or stabilize their illness.

https://www.uscis.gov/system/files_force/files/form/i-9-paper-version.pdf?download=1 

Abrignac wrote:

That's correct. So if the payment is being made "above the table" then the illegal immigrant is using a SSN (for instance a dead person's SSN). Then taxes are being paid.

If it's below the table, then taxes are not being paid.

I don't know the percentage of which is which

victor809 wrote:

Neither do I. But, I’m in the residential remodeling industry. As such, I’ve dealt with many subs. With rare exception, ones that hang around Home Depot are insistent in being paid in cash.

Abrignac wrote:

I definitely agree that labor is cash.

But I don't know how the large agricultural or food concerns are able to get away with that. I simply don't know because I've not been involved in it, I'd bet someone like Opel would know. But these are large companies with generally "by-the-book" payrolls. I suspect to make their books work, they have to pay to a SSN. If that's the case, then a large number of illegals are getting paid above-the table, and then getting taxed.

But someone with more access to data would have to get that information

victor809 wrote:

I definitely agree that labor is cash.

But I don't know how the large agricultural or food concerns are able to get away with that. I simply don't know because I've not been involved in it, I'd bet someone like Opel would know. But these are large companies with generally "by-the-book" payrolls. I suspect to make their books work, they have to pay to a SSN. If that's the case, then a large number of illegals are getting paid above-the table, and then getting taxed.

But someone with more access to data would have to get that information

victor809 wrote:

Not sure but, I’d suspect those workers use falsified documents to obtain an SSN.

Abrignac wrote:

https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/

evidently in many cases taxes can be paid by undocumented workers without ss numbers...

frankj1 wrote:

Interesting. I learned about ITINs now.

victor809 wrote:

yeah, me too.
so many pay to create a record of paying taxes in hopes of establishing "good character" as they may one day apply for citizenship.

I'm assuming (don't feel like researching right now) that they are also paying into Social Security that they may never be eligible to collect.

frankj1 wrote:

Yes, that would be accurate. Once you're tying into the system you'd pay all of it.

But I would honestly seriously doubt the percentage of illegal immigrants that would do this. TW's mentioned it before, but I think there's a pretty deep fear of the government in that community. Seems unlikely that many would voluntarily identify themselves in that manner. A fake SSN to meet the paperwork requirements and no more seems more likely. Uncle sam get's it's cut and they get to work.

victor809 wrote: