"""Also I realize you do not agree with the President but lets at least have respect enough for the office not to refer to him by his initials. """

Pretty mild insult compared to the way the Right refered to Clinton don't you think? or was



that












somehow










differant?

Yep it is Different Spiny... Show me where Bush has demoralized this Country... and I will show you where Clinton DID......

Deal???


Hog

So he got a little nookie in the white house. BIG %^&*^$ DEAL!

Not the first, won't be the last!

Wanna talk veitnam era draft defferment? I offer the Shrub's record of military service. Ushered into a cushy unit with the other rich folks spawn, consisting of training on an obsolete aircraft that stood 0 chance of seeing front line duty. He could'nt even stick around for that.

Wanna talk business dealings? I offer the activities of the Texas Rangers baseball organization and their dealings with private landowners in the area of the stadium they were building. He and his partners still refuse to pay back the millions they cost the city of Arlington with their illeagal activities.

Wanne talk his great family values? Doing a heck of a job with those two barfly daughters of his dontcha think?

Clinton was no saint. Neither is your marginally trianed chimp.

Chris, our President was elected to perform the duties at hand...whether we/he could foresee them or not. We PUT him in that position.

Would your thoughts be any different if it was Clinton in the Oval Office? Did he ever risk his life as you've pointed out regarding Bush?

It's six of one, half dozen of another. Our President (think past, present and future) is our President whether he's 'served' the country in the past or not...

E - I agree, but when people spout off about having experience when they have none themselves and the majority of people in this country don't either it's a ridiculous argument. That's all I was trying to say...

I am more than a little familiar with war. I spent fifteen months in Vietnam in 1968-1969. I was older than most of the young men with whom I served, as I'd already graduated college when I entered the army. Everything written in the letter above is true. Truly, war is hell. You do things and witness things that you spend a lifetime trying to forget. Those who claim to have been in combat, and have the audacity to glorify it are either sociopaths or liars.
That said, Saddam Hussein must be removed from Iraq, hopefully by diplomatic means or internal insurrection, but he must be removed. This is a man who has no qualm about killing. By his own hand, he has killed many members of his own family who he thought might compromise his personal power. His wanton slaughter of the Kurds in Northern Iraq clearly displays his attitude toward humanity. With ICBMs and nuclear weapons at his disposal, the world would certainly be on the eve of imminent destruction.
It truly is, however, an horrific mark on the history of American foreign policy that during the rise of the Ayatollah Kohmeini and his assumption of power in Iran in 1978, the U.S. built Saddam Hussein's military infrastructure in Iraq, as a presumed deterrent to Iranian hegemony over the region. Without U.S. backing and support, it's unlikely Saddam Hussein could have stayed in power.
As you all know, CBS's Dan Rather recently interviewed Saddam Hussein for television broadcast. It would have been impossible for U.S. Intelligence not to know where the interview was taking place. If the goal of the Bush policy toward Iraq was just to remove Saddam Hussein, the opportunity was there. One rocket into the interview room would have ended Saddam Hussein and his reign of terror. But, certainly, the Bush administration advisors were saying, "My God, what would the public reaction be to taking out Dan Rather and the CBS production crew with Saddam Hussein?" It's called collateral damage, and it's a part of war. The Administration chose, instead, to risk the lives of thousands of American soldiers to avoid bad public relations. Believe me...believe your instincts when you say to yourself, "Saddam Hussein knew the Bush Administration would never sacrifice an American news crew to kill." Would another president have handled the situation any differently? I don't know. Had I been President, I know what the choice would have been.

SteveR, I will respect your Posting... and Take it from a Retired Vets point of View... but as far as being a sociopath or liar... I nor anyone Else Still serving this Country can atest to that Statement if they are in Veterans Status and feeding a Family and Love there Country... You just Go with it... just as everyone else has through the Years....You Try to make the best out of any situation that you can and take it from there...I have never said weather I have takin it in the shorts or not for Uncle Sam... and anyone can gather that either way they want to... but for many of US this is our Living and something we Love to do... Defend the USofA and sometimes that with Blood on our Hands... but no where is it Writen that there will always be Peace in the World!!!! BTW I have gone through the Shrink and was checked out OK So are you Calling me a Liar???


Hog

Hog...please read my first post carefully. I think I know how you feel, but my instincts tell me you've never been in combat, have never seen a friend bleed out in front of you, never written a letter to a buddy's parents, that he may have been killed by friendly fire.
I understand that you are writing from your heart, but so am I, and from the experience of being in an ugly war where thousands of young Americans died or were permanently maimed. No one, that I have ever met,in my almost sixty years, who experienced real combat, has described it as an enlightening, gratifying experience. Who, in their right mind, would acclaim, "There was death and dying everywhere. I enjoyed the experience?" Thank God, no one.

Yes, we have to defend our country and people. It is part of the social contract we have with our government as citizens. But, it is also the right and obligation of others to make us affirm that what we are doing is in the best interests of the people.

History tells us that the Vietnam War was a waste of American lives. Read Daniel Ellsberg's The Pentagon Papers for an historical account of what can happen when politicians of all parties pursue political goals rather than diplomacy. I answered my country's call, but the call should never have been made.

The issue isn't who is being called a liar. I ask you this, Hog: Have you been at war, in combat, seen friends die or be permanently maimed? Can you say the experience was glorious or inspiring? I think you, and anyone who has been in modern combat will say, "No."

We fight to defend our loved ones. I would do it again, in a heartbeat, if called upon. Would I enjoy the experience? Of course, not. War is not a game. It's not fun. It's not a cartoon, where after being shot, you pop back up, and take another turn. You get shot and pray to God that you live.

I've spoken to many groups, both veterans' groups and civilians, as a Vietnam Veteran, a disabled Vietnam Veteran, and as an Agent Orange Veteran. I always say I take great pride in my service to America. I come from a tradition of military service. My father's brother was a 30-year Marine, a holder of the Silver Star and three Purple Hearts. My mother's brother, an Army physician in WWII, was one of the first American doctors to treat Hitler's concentration camp survivors in early 1943. I expected to serve my country and I do take pride in my service. But, it does not lessen the responsibility of all Americans, particularly our elected leaders, to make certain when they send our children to fight and die in foreign wars, it is the final alternative in the diplomatic process.

Hog, I will say it again and again, "I never met a veteran who was in ground combat who said it was an enriching, glorifying experience." I don't doubt that there are rear echelon troops, non-combatants, who have great war stories to tell. In my experience, they are always the first to glorify the war they never fought.

If you are in service, now, God speed, my friend. I hope and pray that you and your mates live long, healthy lives without so much as a scratch.

Hog...please read my first post carefully. I think I know how you feel, but my instincts tell me you've never been in combat, have never seen a friend bleed out in front of you, never written a letter to a buddy's parents, that he may have been killed by friendly fire.

(Yes I have been in Combat, Have had a Friend Bleed out in front of me, "Not in War though" didn't write any letters to parents but witnessed there emotions in real life when the news was given to them... and I can also tell you I have experienced the emotions of Friendly Fire, and the termoil following it...)

I understand that you are writing from your heart, but so am I, and from the experience of being in an ugly war where thousands of young Americans died or were permanently maimed. No one, that I have ever met,in my almost sixty years, who experienced real combat, has described it as an enlightening, gratifying experience. Who, in their right mind, would acclaim, "There was death and dying everywhere. I enjoyed the experience?" Thank God, no one.
( I can Say "Enjoyment" is not the word to discribe it, and Enjoyment is not the word I used either...
I fulfill my with the best Joyes things I possibly can... I like to live it to the fullest... because I know that tomorrow it could be over.. and then I will have to stand before "My God" and Account for my Actions....
Yes, we have to defend our country and people. It is part of the social contract we have with our government as citizens. But, it is also the right and obligation of others to make us affirm that what we are doing is in the best interests of the people.

(Who are you refering to as "Others"? France? Germany?
and any other piss ant country who for the past 12 years has been helping Saddam rebuild his Arsinal?
let's just let him do what he wants and pull out all together... and while we're at it pull clear out of S.Korea... and just let the North walk on in??? lets just close our eye's to all the other world situations because they are not directly effecting the American Citizens... You know and have Stated this cannot happen)

History tells us that the Vietnam War was a waste of American lives. Read Daniel Ellsberg's The Pentagon Papers for an historical account of what can happen when politicians of all parties pursue political goals rather than diplomacy. I answered my country's call, but the call should never have been made.

(12 years of Diplomacy here is going to Cost many American Soldiers Lives... 12 years of not doing a damn thing but allowing these other country's to break these Sanctions and re-arm Saddam Hussain is going to Cost America Allot Financially and Morally... And Yes Vietnam was a Major Political Play and Mistake... but you cannot base the rest of the World Situations on what happend in Vietnam)

The issue isn't who is being called a liar. I ask you this, Hog: Have you been at war, in combat, seen friends die or be permanently maimed? Can you say the experience was glorious or inspiring? I think you, and anyone who has been in modern combat will say, "No."

( Yes I have been in Combat, At War... and can easily say "No" I have not seen men permanently maimed "in War" And I am not preaching that it is Glorious nor Inspiring... what I was refering to in my above Statement is.. these Men and Women..and myself are still in service and right now many are on the front lines and bracing to go into Battle not knowing the outcome... but they know as well as you do when there life is on the line they have to keep themselves pumped for what is about to take place...because all they have with them right now is there selves and there buddy's and there Training... everything else is back home 1000's of miles away and to get back to that they have to get through the Ugly Face of War... and like you many are sitting over there with little news and what they do get is the liberal crap shown on cnn and other media about the Protests and crap... not the people of the United States behind them... just Millions in the Streets Protesting... what comes to Mind?? then you get these thought of F#$*$K IT Man... I'm over here risking my ass for these F#&$Kin People and nobody cares... Wrong Portfolio showing there???
Noone can Say Media doesn't do its own tricks on ones mind...Especially when a person is in there Shoe's Deadline is Monday March 17th 2003...they have to be Geared and Focused... No its not Glorious nor Inspiring
you either Fight and Live... or you Fight and Die... but no one knows the Answer to that until the Fighting Stops....and the members still in Service have to maintain a rediness... like one of the members here said to me a few months back... he thought I was Bitching about being in the Military... when actually I was bitching about people like his dumb ass!!! he says Suck it up Soldier... )

We fight to defend our loved ones. I would do it again, in a heartbeat, if called upon. Would I enjoy the experience? Of course, not. War is not a game. It's not fun. It's not a cartoon, where after being shot, you pop back up, and take another turn. You get shot and pray to God that you live.

I've spoken to many groups, both veterans' groups and civilians, as a Vietnam Veteran, a disabled Vietnam Veteran, and as an Agent Orange Veteran. I always say I take great pride in my service to America. I come from a tradition of military service. My father's brother was a 30-year Marine, a holder of the Silver Star and three Purple Hearts. My mother's brother, an Army physician in WWII, was one of the first American doctors to treat Hitler's concentration camp survivors in early 1943. I expected to serve my country and I do take pride in my service. But, it does not lessen the responsibility of all Americans, particularly our elected leaders, to make certain when they send our children to fight and die in foreign wars, it is the final alternative in the diplomatic process.

(I Myself have Family who throughout have risk there lives from the Trenches in Europe to Liberating Japan and on the beaches of New Guinie(sp), several cousin's fought in the very Same War you fought in... two of them were Brother's who joined the same Unit and Job so that when one was over there the other one would be home, there Son's, my other Cousin's are also in the Military from Marines to Army... One is Bio/Chemical Weapons Specialist and as far as we all know is sitting in Northern Iraq...(Not Certian on that though) and my Nephue is also sitting a few miles off the Iraqi boarder in the South... Marine on the Front Line.. his unit will probably be the one if Iraq does unleash there Chemicals will be in line for it...
I can tell you this... in 99 I was Proud to be serving my tours in Missions for the USA... it was my 3rd rotation and I was feeling kind of Cocky when there were only about 3 in our unit who was on there 3rd rotation to the region... when the Comander asked in the Right Start briefing who has been here once before? I raised my hand,As did many others from all over.. twice? it went up again,three time's Proudly up it went again... when he got all the way up to 15 I thought to myself F$&%K Russ you ain't been know where yet to be proud of... here were guy's, gal's on 120 day rotations back at the same grind for there 15th tour... and why? because they Love there Country.. this is there Job... and they have a Family to take care of...I lost one Marrage and all my Kid's... Yes maybe the Military had something to do with this...But I don't think So...the main thing that Brought all these people into that Area... Was and is for the Love of the Country they swore to Protect, And the People in it...So Sometimes people have to Endure the Ultimate and Extreme... But Steve it's not going to Stop over night
"with this above that you have writen, it brings myself to another Question... That Being, on this Instance with Iraq.. you do not feel that the Administration Now has not allowed the Full Diplomatic Process?" )

Hog, I will say it again and again, "I never met a veteran who was in ground combat who said it was an enriching, glorifying experience." I don't doubt that there are rear echelon troops, non-combatants, who have great war stories to tell. In my experience, they are always the first to glorify the war they never fought. (Steve My Ground Combat does not come from Hand to Hand nor in the Trenches,

If you are in service, now, God speed, my friend. I hope and pray that you and your mates live long, healthy lives without so much as a scratch.

(I Am in the Service Now... but from this Point and what is going on in the World Situation, I with my Unit are sitting this one out..."Right Now" with Iraq... Watching whats going on in other parts of the Globe... So this Gives me time to sit and Ponder And Know what is about to take place... and it as I am sure it is you Tearing Apart Emotions...)
GodSpeed to all our Fighting Forces, and to all the Coalition Forces who are standing beside this United States!!!

and SteveR Thank You!!!

Hog