billyjackson
23 years ago
So, what are the thoughts regarding this matter?
al'Thor
23 years ago
leave it to you, billy......

As a very strong believer in the 10 Commandments both socially and spiritually and as a very strong believer in God, the Bible and Jesus Christ, my opinion is... it doesn't really matter.....the issue isn't what's up on the wall, it's what's in people's hearts and minds... as far as the semantics of the law.... it seems like a small,nit picky issue, that has a much deeper root..
Tobasco
23 years ago

Today it's still there...there have been people there that say nobody is gonna move it...if a moving company moves it, there are threats of boycotting the company.

Mag
billyjackson
23 years ago
I would say that the 10 Commandments were probably actually written down during the Hebrew exile into Babylon which put them in contact with the traditions dating back to Hammurabi's code and that it is funny that people are so hell bent on having that rock in the courthouse so they can "acknowledge God" when the laws were probably adapted from much earlier, non-Yahweh-worshipping cultures.

But I won't say all that.
choner
23 years ago
Lord, I shall give these laws to thy people. Hear me, oh, hear me. All pay head. The Lord. The Lord Jehovah has given unto you these fifteen (Crash!) Oy. Ten! Ten Commandments. For all to obey!
RICKAMAVEN
23 years ago
al'Thor

i am glad you are a believer. what's in your heart is your business.

i do not believe in a "god", your "bible, or christ as being the "son of god." and that's my business

my taxes pay for government buildings. keep your religious beliefs out of my buildings.
DrMaddVibe
23 years ago
My taxes go to pave roads that occasionally have a gay parade on it. Do I like it...no, but I'm not griping about it. It's built into the price of freedom, that and the majority thingy too.
RICKAMAVEN
23 years ago
drmadvibe

if you are going to argue with logic, i don't stand a chance.
DrMaddVibe
23 years ago
There's no logic there Rick. You stated an opinion. The logic in the statement is that you're severly outnumbered. There are more people that tend to believe in a higher power than those that choose to believe in nothing.

The way I see it, is that "some" people read the Ten Commandments the the judge's docket wouldn't be so filled. No foul, no crime.
Homebrew
22 years ago
Hey DMV,
You are very right. I agree, that there are more of us, that believe in a higher power, than those who don't. But, what if my God, is different than your God. Is it fair, as I go to court, to see a monument expressing belief in Your God, but not mine, as I Go into the court. Am I going to get a fair trial????? Or am I going to be persecuted, because I believe in a different God?????? I believe it is a perception thing.
Just My .02
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
P.S. Let the judge, put the monument in his office, so people know where he stands. Not in the rotunda.
al'Thor
22 years ago
Rick,

That's funny... because my taxes pay for government buildings also, but your trying to put YOUR religious beliefs in those same buildings. Also funny that you would start addressing my comments (or just me) like that when if you had read with a more "open mind" like you claim to have, you would see that I AGREE WITH YOU. While I think that most of the people who founded this country believed in the Judeo-Christian God and established the government within the context of that belief, and I think our country would be a heck of a lot better if we all tried to obey the 10 commandments as well as considered government within a biblical context, I could care less whether the 10 commandments was up on some wall in some courthouse. I would die for your right to not believe in God, and I think there are much more productive ways to share your belief and ideas. Clear?
al'Thor
22 years ago
And when I say "more productive ways to share your belief and ideas" I mean, more productive than fighting for the 10 commandments to be up in some public courthouse.
DrMaddVibe
22 years ago
I would like to share with all of you the words of Patrick Henry. A founding father of the US. He was there in the beginning, so there must be some substance to his words that time cannot erase.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religious, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."

And the most often quote of his that's taken out of context.

"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

True words then...and now.
Cigarick
22 years ago
"Freedom of religion" means not only freedom of ANY religion, but it also means freedom FROM religion. Most of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians. Jefferson was quite clear about the separation of church and state throughout his writings.
DrMaddVibe
22 years ago
Reread Jefferson. The "seperation" of church and state only refers to the government sponsorship of an organized church(ala The Church of England), the founding fathers knew too well what it was like under tyranny.

The folly that this means there shouldn't be ANY religion is pure foolishness. Your money is stamped with "In God We Trust", am I to believe you don't use US currency? Our Congress and Senate start each session with a prayer. The Supreme Court opens each docket with a prayer. All 3 of these reference the name of God.

Its a personal decision to believe in God, and I'm not pushing it on anyone, but to decree that based on the "beliefs" of those that choose not to believe in a divine being we should rip God out of this nation is something that won't happen during our lifetime!
DrMaddVibe
22 years ago
I also submit the following:



The Founding Fathers and Deism

by David Barton



(We receive numerous requests from across the country to answer various editorials and letters-to-the-editor. The subject is usually the religious persuasions of the Founding Fathers, and the standard assertion is that they were all deists. The following is but one of many possible replies to such accusations.)

I notice that your newspaper has an ongoing debate concerning the religious nature of the Founding Fathers. A recent letter claimed that most of the Founding Fathers were deists, and pointed to Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, Hamilton, and Madison as proof. After making this charge, the writer acknowledged the "voluminous writings" of the Founders, but it appears that she has not read those writings herself. However, this is no surprise since the U. S. Department of Education claims that only 5 percent of high schools graduates know how to examine primary source documentation.

Interestingly, the claims in this recent letter to the editor are characteristic of similar claims appearing in hundreds of letters to the editor across the nation. The standard assertion is that the Founders were deists. Deists? What is a deist? In dictionaries like Websters, Funk & Wagnalls, Century, and others, the terms "deist," "agnostic," and "atheist" appear as synonyms. Therefore, the range of a deist spans from those who believe there is no God, to those who believe in a distant, impersonal creator of the universe, to those who believe there is no way to know if God exists. Do the Founders fit any of these definitions?

None of the notable Founders fit this description. Thomas Paine, in his discourse on "The Study of God," forcefully asserts that it is "the error of schools" to teach sciences without "reference to the Being who is author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin." He laments that "the evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching [science without God] has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism." Paine not only believed in God, he believed in a reality beyond the visible world.

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the necessity of a public religion . . . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Consider also the fact that Franklin proposed a Biblical inscription for the Seal of the United States; that he chose a New Testament verse for the motto of the Philadelphia Hospital; that he was one of the chief voices behind the establishment of a paid chaplain in Congress; and that when in 1787 when Franklin helped found the college which bore his name, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning" built "on Christ, the Corner-Stone." Franklin certainly doesn't fit the definition of a deist.

Nor does George Washington. He was an open promoter of Christianity. For example, in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn "above all" was the "religion of Jesus Christ," and that to learn this would make them "greater and happier than they already are"; on May 2, 1778, he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge that "To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian"; and when he resigned his commission as commander-in-chief of the military on June 8, 1783, he reminded the nation that "without a humble imitation" of "the Divine Author of our blessed religion" we "can never hope to be a happy nation." Washington's own adopted daughter declared of Washington that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity.

Alexander Hamilton was certainly no deist. For example, Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great: (1) Christianity, and (2) a Constitution formed under Christianity. Only Hamilton's death two months later thwarted his plan of starting a missionary society to promote Christian government. And at the time he did face his death in his duel with Aaron Burr, Hamilton met and prayed with the Rev. Mason and Bishop Moore, wherein he reaffirmed to him his readiness to face God should he die, having declared to them "a lively faith in God's mercy through Christ, with a thankful remembrance of the death of Christ." At that time, he also partook of Holy Communion with Bishop Moore.

The reader, as do many others, claimed that Jefferson omitted all miraculous events of Jesus from his "Bible." Rarely do those who make this claim let Jefferson speak for himself. Jefferson own words explain that his intent for that book was not for it to be a "Bible," but rather for it to be a primer for the Indians on the teachings of Christ (which is why Jefferson titled that work, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth"). What Jefferson did was to take the "red letter" portions of the New Testament and publish these teachings in order to introduce the Indians to Christian morality. And as President of the United States, Jefferson signed a treaty with the Kaskaskia tribe wherein he provided—at the government's expense—Christian missionaries to the Indians. In fact, Jefferson himself declared, "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." While many might question this claim, the fact remains that Jefferson called himself a Christian, not a deist.

James Madison trained for ministry with the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon, and Madison's writings are replete with declarations of his faith in God and in Christ. In fact, for proof of this, one only need read his letter to Attorney General Bradford wherein Madison laments that public officials are not bold enough about their Christian faith in public and that public officials should be "fervent advocates in the cause of Christ." And while Madison did allude to a "wall of separation," contemporary writers frequently refuse to allow Madison to provide his own definition of that "wall." According to Madison, the purpose of that "wall" was only to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion.

None of the Founders mentioned fit the definition of a deist. And as is typical with those who make this claim, they name only a handful of Founders and then generalize the rest. This in itself is a mistake, for there are over two hundred Founders (fifty-five at the Constitutional Convention, ninety who framed the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and fifty-six who signed the Declaration) and any generalization of the Founders as deists is completely inaccurate.

The reason that such critics never mention any other Founders is evident. For example, consider what must be explained away if the following signers of the Constitution were to be mentioned: Charles Pinckney and John Langdon—founders of the American Bible Society; James McHenry—founder of the Baltimore Bible Society; Rufus King—helped found a Bible society for Anglicans; Abraham Baldwin—a chaplain in the Revolution and considered the youngest theologian in America; Roger Sherman, William Samuel Johnson, John Dickinson, and Jacob Broom—also theological writers; James Wilson and William Patterson—placed on the Supreme Court by President George Washington, they had prayer over juries in the U. S. Supreme Court room; and the list could go on. And this does not even include the huge number of thoroughly evangelical Christians who signed the Declaration or who helped frame the Bill of Rights.

Any portrayal of any handful of Founders as deists is inaccurate. (If this group had really wanted some irreligious Founders, they should have chosen Henry Dearborne, Charles Lee, or Ethan Allen). Perhaps critics should spend more time reading the writings of the Founders to discover their religious beliefs for themselves rather than making such sweeping accusations which are so easily disproven.

Thank You,
David Barton/WallBuilders
RICKAMAVEN
22 years ago
cigarick

"deists" i must admit i never heard hat word before.

pretty good word. i'll bet it shows up in one of my posts. thanks
Cigarick
22 years ago
Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Joel Barlow wrote the original English version of the treaty, including Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern.
DrMaddVibe
22 years ago
Cigarrick, that is the biggest stretch ever.

That was a very poor translation and the very article was stripped from the treaty. How come you didn't out that in your post?

Here's the rest that you forgot to put in there...

"The official 1797 Treaty with Tripoli which President John Adams signed and “ordered the premises [propositions] to be made public” included Article 11 in the English language. As for the Treaty in Arabic, not one Senator read it. The only Treaty which mattered to the Senators and the President was the one in English. America is a nation wherin citizens can accept whatever religion they choose and can practice it freely--as long as they obey the laws of society."

Lying by omission.

DrMaddVibe
22 years ago
Now what does THAT have to do with your "deists"?

If you don't believe that's fine, but don't push your "beliefs" onto others.
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