UPDATE

January 14, 2004

Viet Nam repatriates remains of US servicemen

Ha Noi, (VNA)- Five boxes containing the remains of US servicemen and their belongings found recently in Viet Nam were handed over to the US MIA office in Ha Noi on Wednesday at Noi Bai International Airport.

At the hand-over ceremony, the US Government representative expressed thanks to the Vietnamese Government and people for their humanitarian policy and effective cooperation.

Present at the event on the US side were Brigadier General W. Winfield, Commander of the US Joint Task Force - Full Accounting, and Ambassador to Viet Nam Raymond F. Burghardt. On the Vietnamese side were representatives from the Viet Nam Office for Missing Persons and relevant agencies.

This was the 91st batch of US MIA remains flown home from Viet Nam, bringing the total number to 815 cases so far.

http://www.vnagency.com.vn/newsA.asp?LANGUAGE_ 
ID=2&CATEGORY_ID=29&NEWS_ID=38891

(c) Vietnam News Agency online


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January 11, 2004
With New Law, Flags Fly Without Fear
By ANDREW KITCHENMAN, Staff Writer

HAMILTON - Six months ago, Dori McIlvaine began keeping a scrapbook of the letters sent to her and her husband, Ralph, backing their decision to defy the local homeowners association order not to fly a POW-MIA flag. (more)


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January 9, 2004
DoD News

Servicemen Missing from Vietnam War Identified
Two servicemen missing in action from the Vietnam War have been identified and returned to their families for burial.

They are Navy Lt. j.g. Robert A. Clark of North Hollywood, Calif., and another officer whose name will not be released at the request of his family.(more)


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Arlington National Cemetery Cermonies

January 9, 2004

There will be a group internment for LT Michael McCormick and LTJG Robert Clark (REFNO 1979) on Friday, January 9, 2004 at 9:00am at Arlington National Cemetery. The funeral service will be at the Old Chapel at Ft Myer followed by the burial and fly over.

On January 10, 1973, LT McCormick, pilot, and LTJG Clark, bombardier/navigator, were flying the second (wingman) A-6A Intruder in a flight of two. Their aircraft was shot down in the vicinity of Nghe An Province while conducting a SAM suppression mission.

Major Irwin Lerner
United States Air Force
Time: 1100 HRS
Date: January 16, 2004
Date of Loss: 12-20-72
Country of Loss: North Vietnam
Date Recovered: Unknown at this time
No Chapel Service/ Only graveside service
Location in Cemetery: Section 67
Grave Site Number: 2963

Please arrive 30 minutes prior to this funeral.
If you would like to download a biography of this man, go to www.pownetwork.org


http://www.vva.org/committee/pow_mia/index.htm 

January 11, 2004
With New Law, Flags Fly Without Fear
By ANDREW KITCHENMAN, Staff Writer

HAMILTON - Six months ago, Dori McIlvaine began keeping a scrapbook of the letters sent to her and her husband, Ralph, backing their decision to defy the local homeowners association order not to fly a POW-MIA flag. (more)

There was a case in Richmond Va. where a man was sued by his HOA and lost to the tune of (I think) $74,000 for court costs and opposing attorneys fees! In the original letter the HOA sent to him, they equated the flying of a POW/MIA flag to a neighbor flying a Barney pennant! Sometimes I wonder who we're fighting for!

Is America worth fighting for, I don’t think so. I would not risk my life to defend this scum in this country again. Im not sure what happened and when, but I think about this alot, and I have no idea how you can still do it.

I have nothing but regrets, some of my best friends died in front of me for this country, the people of this country showed no respect EVER.

we were **** on after we came back, we were called baby killers, we had nobody saying hey thanks for going over there, and we were the butt of jokes all thought the 80's and 90's up till 911, then for a few months we got some thanks and respect but now that is over with.

And trust me, they really don’t give a **** about the troops, they see troops as being weak brainwashed baby killing fools that can’t make it in a real job.

That is what they see. Why defend this country anymore, look at how this so called America acts.

its just sick, a few months ago I went to pick a buddy up from a va hospital and let me just say this, if you get hurt bad, you will wish you were dead after looking at these so called hospitals.

Nobody cares, not the people of this country nor the leaders of this country.

So there is no reason to fight a losing battle. This is not our country anymore it is gone and not coming back.



I took my American flag down today and packed it away, now I only fly my pow flag.

I give up.

If you stand up for anything right today you are labeled a racist republican how these nitwits can think that is beyond me.

They are all goddam morons!!! They walk hand in hand with commie scum, anti-American pigs that commit terrorist acts against us on our own land, why? Because they don’t support the war, so they join the goddam enemy because they run the big anti war protests. How insane is that!!


They want illegals to enter this country at anytime, why? Because that’s what this country was founded on, BULL****. My ancestors came to this country legally, they were shipped to ellis island and deloused, examined for diseases and also held for a period of time before even setting foot into this country.

They did not sneak in here under the cover of darkness while spreading diseases and draining every last bit of national resources in an illegal fashion.

My ancestors paid there goddam dues.

What a bunch of bull****

And they cry about how there is no WMD, you know what I say, GOOD IM GLAD, why? Because its better to stop it before it even happens, the **** would have made them eventually.

"And they cry about how there is no WMD, you know what I say, GOOD IM GLAD, why? Because its better to stop it before it even happens, the **** would have made them eventually. "

I myself think they went to Syria, there is no way he destroyed the WMD he had, and if he did he would have been able to let the inspectors in and prove it to the world. I think he was sneaking them out the back door and into Syria and then having a good cleanup of locations, people and paperwork while France and Russia held off the US / UN. Unfortunately for him it took just a little too long. And unfortunately for France and Russia they won't be getting those juicy oil contracts they had been promised.

And if there were no WMD, I can say I don't like being misled if that is what happened, but at the same time he needed to be dealt with. We let them bring the fight to us on 9-11, and if we didn't act they would just keep coming back. I have dealt with heavies several times who sought to impose their will upon me and my business. Sometimes just standing up to them and looking them square in the eye was enough, and one time it was necessary to take the fight to them. They never came back seeking to do the same thing a second time.

I am split in my mind about the people of Iraq. On the one hand I think they should have gotten rid of him themselves, they had long enough to do it. But then Sadam's idol was Stalin, and he knew a thing or two about staying in control too, so perhaps it wasn't so easy to overthrow him. And if it saved a few young girls from being raped and tortured, and a few others from being put in a giant meat grinder, then I think it was a good thing to do. The real measure will come in 20 years time when we look at Iraq and the whole region and see if doing what we did changed things for the better. Because there is no doubt that the biggest threat to our homeland besides north korea is the arab states.

And I hope before bush is finished he makes Saudi Arabia pay for their games, they are no friend of ours and I think that since 9-11 that has become abundantly clear. On its own I don't hold it against the Saudi nation that the terrorists that struck us on 9-11 were mostly Saudi, but that taken with their actions since then is a clear indication that they have been plotting behind our backs. I am not advocating we invade the Saudi's next btw, but they need to be made to pay for their sins.

"There was a case in Richmond Va. where a man was sued by his HOA and lost to the tune of (I think) $74,000 for court costs and opposing attorneys fees! In the original letter the HOA sent to him, they equated the flying of a POW/MIA flag to a neighbor flying a Barney pennant! Sometimes I wonder who we're fighting for! "

That sort of thing pisses me off. Whatever happened to live and let live anyway.

65gto -- ever read the book "STOLEN VALOR?" it's about all the people who pretend to be vietnam vets and put on quite a convincing act -- they created the stereotype of the maltreated vietnam war hero who was spurned by his country, spit on, called baby killer, etc. these fake vietnam "vets" -- the chronically unemployed, the alcoholic, the crazy, etc. -- whine the loudest, present themselves in shaggy rags, talk about the horrors and how it's scarred them for life and so on -- these fake vets pulled a scam on the REAL vietnam vets.

most vets who were in vietnam came home, went to work, started families and went on to become very productive members of society. the stereotype of the haunted, alcoholic/junkie, crazy vietnam vet was not built upon fact but upon fiction -- it was based on guys who, losing at life, decided to point to a war they never fought in and claim that their lives were destroyed "because of 'nam, man... all because of 'nam..."

it's amazing how many guys like this have the nerve to pass themselves off as vietnam veterans who had "seen things to horrible to describe." the book is about how such men have hijacked the valor of those who really did fight there -- and came home and went on with life and have had successful jobs, marriages, lives...

vietnam vets who served with honor and came back to continue to live with honor and pride are now taking back the image of the vietnam veteran. guys who ramble about how bad it was, how it screwed up their lives, etc. are no longer given a pat on the back and unbridled sympathy. the real vets are now asking questions and demanding that these sad sacks back up their claims.

what they're finding is that a HELL of a lot of these sad sack "they spit on my uniform" vets NEVER SERVED AT ALL! and if they did serve in the military, they never went anywhere near viet nam, and especially never went into the deep end of it.

organizations are forming now to root out these fake vets and expose them for what they are: frauds. the navy seals are especially gung ho on rooting out these frauds and exposing them -- even taking legal action against those brash enough to display ribbons and medals they never earned but merely bought in a surplus shop and made up a story to go with it.

it's a great book, and i highly recommend it to anyone who fought in vietnam, and especially those who think of the typical vietnam vet as that shaggy, drunk, drug-addicted loser who just can't get his life together.

the books is mind-blowing, and it's about time that the real vietnam vets got the respect they're due -- and have been owed all along.

the book is Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and Its History by B. G. Burkett. check out the web site at www.stolenvalor.com/

it's an excellent read, and it totally changed my opinion of vietnam vets. it's time for the fakes to be discovered and routed; it's time for those who really did go through hell to get their proper respect.
i highly recommend it!

an addendum: that's not to say that everyone who went to viet nam came back safe, sane and able to "just move on." there are vets who truly did go through hell and are still going through it -- especially those fighting for their GI benefits, VA hospitalization and so forth.

but it's an amazing read about how america has been so guilt-ridden about the war that anyone who says "the war screwed me up" gets an automatic salute and sympathy. it really takes some cojones of steel (imo) for the vets to stand up and say "yeah? what's your DD-14 info" and actually check out the guys who claim to have been "ruined" by viet nam.

it's not that the real vets are trying to be jerks; they're not -- but they also don't want to suffer from the stereotype of the "screwed up 'nam vet," when in fact such people are NOT typical but anomolies!

anyway, it's an amazing read that totally blows up the image of the viet nam vet as the crazy, addicted loser and FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY gives props to the men who fought there in that hell and came back to go on leading a life of honor, despite having their image and honor spit upon by phony vets who have indeed done a bang-up job of stealing valor of the real vietnam vets.

I know about that book, and I take it that you are implying now that im a fraud, unemployed, alcoholic, crazy, that did not start a family, losing at life, junkie

Are you saying im guilty of that?

I guess this is what I get bringing up lsd and painting topics. I myself was never spit on, I WAS called a baby killer, and the rumors about no vets ever being spit on is a joke im 100% sure some were spit on.

Anyway, I was going to call you a bunch of names, debunk everything you said, I don’t have it in me anymore, Im just guessing you want to discredit me as a person and a vet now because you can’t provide facts to back up your twisted views. (liberal 101)

I myself had doubts that you were a police officer. But now I do believe you ARE one. Read between those lines.



This is my last post on political topics like the title says, I truly have no fight left in me. I hate the majority in this country and people like you that have destroyed it with political correctness.

The funny thing is, I try to speak with real honesty and thoughts not trying to speak for a group in a correct manner that is acceptable in most forms. I speak with true feelings and thoughts disregarding everything. I don’t think about (if I say this maybe conservatives wont like me anymore, or military men might not agree.)

I did that when I first came to this message room, but now I enjoy speaking with my heart. Im sure most liberals demonrats and conservatives or military men and women don’t care for anything I say. Im a freak in a group all to myself.


Hey you get off my cloud. Don’t talk to me anymore, I don’t need to hear this from a two bit pig cop, go shoot some black boy 31 times because he pulled his wallet out too fast.


Your a real mind reader alright, you are guilty of doing everything you say us oh so smart white brothers do.

Also I never made the claim to have been "ruined" by viet nam. if anything its made me a better person in a strange way.

And I NEVER used being in nam to get any job or hand out. Im the owner of a very successful chrome plating company that my son runs now.

I don't think Cavallo was saying you are a liar....I think he was trying to connect with what you are saying in your origional post.
That was how I read it.

65gto: NO! i am NOT implying anything whatsoever about you. i don't know you from adam.

your post just reminded me that vietnam veterans in our country have been stereotyped as crazy homeless drunks, and the TRUTH of the matter is that most of them are nothing of the kind.

i was agreeing with you that our vietnam veterans have been treated shamefully and CONTINUE to be treated shamefully. my pointing out this book was an attempt to get others to take a look at why that is and re-examine their views on the MYTH of the "i can't do anything because i went to 'nam" vietnam vet!

my brother and many of his friends are 'nam vets who saw a lot of horrible stuff. they aren't drunk, lazy slackers. they came back and took their place in society. but they STILL in 2004 feel the need to hide their service because people now think vietnam vet = crazy bum.

you talked about how shamefully the vets were treated then; i was trying to point out how they are STILL being treated (though for different reasons).

you can call me whatever names you want, sir. but don't put words in my mouth!

Ok, im sorry, I just woke up and read a few lines and went off, I had little sleep last night, im going back to bed.

im what you would call eccentric not crazy, but this is not due to the war it's due to the times I grew up in, I took the best things from the (early hippy era) and twisted into a totally strange new form many cannot understand. Im the pro-establishment hippy with a gun, as some of my close friends put it.

Again sorry to go off like that.

LOL you know what's really ironic? i really don't think that our views are oceans apart. the devil's in the details, though.

i'm a full-fledged eccentric, too. only for me it manifested with a bright purple mohawk instead of love beads. heh. that was before the crew cut, which was eccentric by then, as everyone else was growing their hair long. LOL can't fit in no matter what! 🙂

anyway, i just re-read my post and can see how you'd draw that conclusion, i swear, though, it was NOT meant as a slam on you in any way, shape or form. i have to know someone a hell of a lot better than through a computer screen before i'd make those kind of accusations.

i do apologise if my post offended you. please know that it was NOT meant to be and was not directed at you.

As many of you know from my prior posts, I am a Vietnam Veteran. I was drafted, reluctantly, in the fall of 1967, prior to the lottery; shortly after I graduated from a Big 10 university. Consequently, I was quite a bit older than most inductees at that time.

I arrived in country in July,'68 assigned to 1st Air Cavalry. After a few months with my unit, I spent time at Long Binh at the evac hospital then was reassigned to MACV (Military Assistance Command Vietnam), then to an administrative unit in Bien Hoa for my last 90 days. I extended my Vietnam tour to fifteen months, so I could ETS (get discharged) out of Vietnam, rather than DEROS (get reassigned for stateside duty.) I ETSed in September '69.

As is the case with most Vietnam veterans, I rarely think about my service. It was another lifetime, thirty-five years ago. Truthfully, I am saddened by those who served with me, but constantly dwell on those events of the past.

In the early 70s, while in graduate school, I was fortunate to be selected for participation in one of the nation's first Agent Orange Task Forces. I also co-wrote the legislation for my state's Vietnam Era Bonus. You'll note the word "era" included. The bigggest battle we faced in passage of the bonus legislation was that everyone who ever wore a military uniform during the Vietnam years, whether they served in SE Asia or not, wanted a piece of the bonus. In the final accounting, more bonuses were paid to men who never reached SE Asia than those who did.

As the years have passed, and I've become a better listener, I hear more and more tales of Vietnam exploits, that I know aren't true. Sometimes I'll ask a simple question, like, "What kind of unit citation did your company receive?" and see the blank stare that follows.

Yes, posers abound. With so much personal information available on line, it's really quite easy to uncover the frauds, but it serves no purpose.

Virtually every Vietnam Veteran I know, after a year or two of transition time, following their military service, returned to life as normal. They went back to school or got jobs and carried on with their lives. Certainly, their lives had changed. We were very thankful to be alive, and often distrustful of the political process that sent us to such an unpopular war, but very few men opted out of carrying on a normal life.

If my country called, would I go again? Obviously, I'm far too old, but, even now, if asked, I would serve. This country has been very good to me and I owe it a debt of gratitude.

Steve R.. I really haven't followed this thread moch but your post was absolutely captivating!! Thanks so much for sharing your perspective and your integrity. Not only are you the man when it comes to cigars, but in many other areas too.

DB

Thank you