usahog
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21 years ago
after reading a bit on our Founding Fathers for posting on another thread... I came across something pretty interesting about Jefferson and I think could be brought into lite today by GWB's charictor?

http://www.usconstitution.com/ThomasJefferson.htm 
Personal Attacks on Jefferson

During his first term Jefferson was subjected to attacks on his personal character that have rarely, if ever, been matched in presidential history. In 1802 sensational charges against him were publicized by James Thomson Callender, a dissolute and unscrupulous journalist whom he had unwisely befriended and who had turned on him when not given a lucrative federal appointment. These charges were gleefully taken up by Jefferson's political enemies, but he maintained his policy of making no public reply to personal attacks. The abuse he suffered from newspapers weakened his confidence in a free press. He believed that his triumphant reelection in 1804 justified his toleration of his critics and reflected approval of his public conduct.

This is without a doubt the same type Charictor shown in GWB's performance and stance in the White House...

Hog
hup4
21 years ago
Hog-
Wasn't Jefferson always accused of having sex with his slaves? Not just Sally but quite a few of them. I remember he also had an ongoing tif with Aaron Burr! Because Burr won the popular vote and Jefferson took the presidency through the electoral college.
It seemed a lot of people didn't like old Tom...but
that didn't stop him from being one of our greatest
Presidents!
usahog
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21 years ago
Yep Hup... and on the link I posted above it goes on to explain this about Jefferson...

Hog
BLISTER
21 years ago
Hog
I especially like the link to the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom.

http://www.usconstitution.com/VirginiaStatutefor  ReligiousFreedom.htm

I think it was passed specifically to rebuke the Anglican Church's ever increasing political influence on the Virginia Commonwealth. It was hailed by the Baptists in Virginia for it's restoration of legislative equality for all sects.

It's OK to be Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim. And it's OK to plant a cross, or a star, or a crescent on the grave of someone who served their country with valor and honor.

I just don't want ANY religious sect dictating the direction and mission of our great country. Kind of the same way Jefferson felt about the Anglican Church.
THL
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21 years ago
As Paul Harvey would say......And now for the rest of the story:

Great post Hog! Did you know that Jefferson 1st hired this guy to dig dirt on Hamilton?

I just finished this book! It is excellent. A little slow in some places but there's a big payoff. This dovetails well with my point in the "1861" thread about the subject of history, that it often is as much un-learning as learning. This review from Amazon.com summarizes it better than I could.......

Scandalmonger

FROM THE PUBLISHER
The bestselling historical novel that exposes the less than honorable side of our Founding Fathers by the Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist.

In this gripping and timely work, William Safire unveils the story behind the nation's first great political scandals. James Thomson Callender, the "scandalmonger" of the title, is an ambitious gossip-peddling editor secretly hired by Thomas Jefferson as a political weapon. After carefully damaging Alexander Hamilton's reputation, thereby paving the way for Jefferson's success, Callender is shunned by the very politicians on whose behalf he was jailed for sedition. Broke and betrayed, Callender seeks revenge by exposing an illicit affair between Jefferson and his slave Sally Hemmings, an accusation that ultimately cost Callender his career and would not be authenticated for two centuries.

By using actual letters, records, and notes to re-create dialogue and events, Scandalmonger embodies historical fiction at its best, politics at its most intriguing, and our Founding Fathers at their most notorious. For those who think that Washington sex scandals and lurid journalism are recent developments, this novel will be a revelation, for Safire shows how media intrusiveness into private lives-and politicians' cool manipulation of the press-are practices as old as the Constitution.



SYNOPSIS
March 1, 2000

Just in time for Election 2000 and exploding any notion that the political sex scandal is a recent phenomenon, our press-hounded Founding Fathers star in an outrageous -- and fact-based -- novel from the Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist William Safire. With dialogue drawn from letters and historical records and notes that scrupulously separate fact from fiction, Safire's novel is studded with masterly portraits of George Washington, John Adams, and Aaron Burr. Read our excerpt from the prologue to Scandalmonger below.

EI
  • EI
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21 years ago
wasn't James Thomson Callender, Dan Rathers Great great grand daddy


if so it runs in the family
CigarPrimate
21 years ago
This is blaphemous. Comparing Bush to Jefferson on almost any level is an oblique tangent at best. Jefferson was a profound intellectual who amassed an amazing library, that he not only kept at Monticello, but personally read. With Bush, on the other hand, one wonders how the guy manages to figure out which shoe to put on which foot.
hup4
21 years ago
CP,
Come on He's from Texas...he don't wear shoes!
usahog
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21 years ago
THL, Yea I read it on the same site I posted above about Jefferson, or I had heard it on history or A&E biography of Jefferson??

OK let me break this down for CP before he has a corinary...
These charges were gleefully taken up by Jefferson's political enemies, but he maintained his policy of making no public reply to personal attacks.

Bush has done the same... Maintained his policy fairly well??

The abuse he suffered from newspapers weakened his confidence in a free press.

This I don't have first hand knowledge of because I haven't had a sit down chat with the man... But CBS alone had taken a hell of an attack at GWB... only this day and age it's television newspaper and internet attacks...

He believed that his triumphant reelection in 1804 justified his toleration of his critics and reflected approval of his public conduct.

I'm thinkin Ol GWB is feeling the same way....

thus the above alone is why I posted this thread like I did... read into it how you like but I see it how it's written above...

Hog
CigarPrimate
21 years ago
CBS used forged documents in a story about GWB ducking military service by riding out the Vietnam War in a cushy National Guard political favor, procured for him by his dad's influence. CBS's documents were false, the reality of GWB's ducking service is not however. Ben Barnes, former speaker and lieutenant governor of Texas, has testified in court on this matter. He damn well has not been proven wrong that I know of. Here's the story (again!):

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/12/news-dubose.php 

Bush ducked military service and is now sending Americans far less fortunate than he to die in Iraq based on weapons of mass destruction that never existed. For my part, I hardly equate the lying and manpulation (or propaganda as it's more euphemistically known) of Bush and his repulsive cronies as "maintained a policy of making no public reply to personal attacks."

Putting Bush in the same sentence with Jefferson is about as perverse as placing former vice president Dan Quayle in the same breath as JFK, IMO, No feasible comparison.

usahog
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21 years ago
Hey CP... can you see what finger I'm holding up??

when ever you say this "Bush Ducked service in Vietnam by joining the national guard"... your saying it to everyone who joined the guard rather then regular military as if they also were ducking some may have, but the Majority never did... and it is a well known fact that many Guard Units were there in Vietnam flying their aircraft in the same missions as the active force.. matter fact while they were there they were the active force It is also a known fact that the Military Brass wanted Air Craft that were bombers not interceptors and the unit Bush belonged to were Interceptors otherwise his unit would have been called up and he would have gone to Nam... what part of this can you not understand??? the way I'm reading your bitter thead is you got a hard on for guard folks??? well for that the "finger" because I happen to have been a career guard trooper and also a part of the total force concept to protect the same United States Freedoms and Constitution as my fellow active duty counterparts... you may be able to split Gene's under a microscope... but you don't have a clue to what makes up the molecular structure of a Soldier!!!

Hog
usahog
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21 years ago
BTW there is also a comparison to Dan Quayle and JFK

"vice president Dan Quayle in the same breath as JFK, IMO, No feasible comparison."

Quayle couldn't find his D*ck and JFK had his Buried in anything he could Find!!!!

Hog
CigarPrimate
21 years ago
I know what makes up the integrety of a logical argument HOG, and equating my disgust for a duck and dodge fortunate son like Bush with disrespect for all who have ever served honorably is pretty low level tactics. That's like saying accusing a priest who molests children of pedophilia is accusing all priests of pedophilia, or some other equally squirrilly analogy. Lots of rich people like Bush ducked service in the Viet Nam era, and their personal dishonor in no way denigartes the service of those who acted otherwise.
THL
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21 years ago
Hey CP! Jefferson didn't even serve in the National Guard! He spent no time under arms at all. He was 33 in 1776 and never fired a shot......er, not with a flintlock, anyway.
CigarPrimate
21 years ago
Yea, Jefferson seemed more the intellectual type to me. Bush on the other hand, afraid to fight, don't like to read, what's the man good for?
THL
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21 years ago
Winning elections over poor candidates.
CigarPrimate
21 years ago
Great! A dumb, cowardly leader. I'm so proud.
hup4
21 years ago
I have a question for anyone who wants to answer mostly CP...
I'm too young to have been in Nam...by about a year.
My brother and two cousins went. My Bro was Army Infantry, my two cousins were Marines. I also had another cousin who was in the National Guard. None of these guys were anywhere near priveleged or rich. These were your average middle class white kids that took what was handed to them! Why does everybody say...if you were in the guard during Nam you must of had a rich Daddy!! I'm missing something...please explain...
usahog
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21 years ago
"Great! A dumb, cowardly leader. I'm so proud."

CP the thread topic was Jefferson To Bush...

not William Jefferson Clinton to Bush...

"I know what makes up the integrety of a logical argument "
Your impending whining about Bush and his National Guard record and being a coward to go to Nam isn't quite the logical argument either CP and it is rather tiring to hear that Liberal Whine in the sake of argument also... he (Bush) has been the CNC for one 4 yr term without being accused or showing himself AWOL as the other Whine goes... and he will be the CNC for another 4 yrs while many of us still have to hear that Liberal Whine... Get over it.... or pick up the tune of the Rebel Yell at least... then it may mean something!!!!

Hog
CigarPrimate
21 years ago
I heard today on the wire that Jr. grew some balls and admited that shooting his mouth off like a yahoo put others in danger. A few more uncharacteristically manly actions like that and I might have to start eating my words.
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