EI
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Thursday, February 3, 2005 4:25:00 PM
The 'Exit Strategy' Democrats

From The Wall Street Journal

Review & Outlook

February 3, 2005

Every so often, an American politician takes an unpopular stand for the sake of what's right... Frequently, he takes an unprincipled stand for the sake of what's popular ...Sometimes, even, he does what's right, which also happens to be popular...

Only in the rarest of instances, however, do politicians take positions that are both unpopular and unprincipled. That is where the Democratic Party leadership finds itself today on Iraq.

On Sunday, some eight million Iraqi citizens risked their lives to participate in parliamentary elections -- as vivid and moving a demonstration of democratic ideals ... Whereupon Senate Democrats Harry Reid, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry took to the airwaves to explain that it was no big deal and that it was time to start casting about for an "exit strategy." ...

So what is the Democratic Party's message on this inspiring exercise in Iraqi self-determination? First, that the election's legitimacy is questionable. Second, that its effects will be minor. Third, that America's presence in Iraq is doing more harm than good by generating terrorism and anti-Americanism where none previously existed. Fourth, that the U.S. has better things to do. Fifth, that American sacrifices in Iraq are best redeemed not by victory, but by the earliest feasible departure.

As a matter of policy, this is a manifesto for irresponsibility. Just as the postponement of elections would have been a gift to the insurgents, a timetable for withdrawal now would amount to a concession of defeat. ...

What is more astonishing, however, is the Democrats' political tone-deafness. In their indictment of Administration policy, the Senators always take care to add a few words of tribute to the American soldier. ...

Today, the Democratic Party has put itself in the awkward position of hoping to gain political advantage in the 2006 elections as a result of American wartime reverses ... This is not a place any political party should wish to be.

We understand that it is in the nature of the party of opposition to oppose. But there's no law in politics that says opposition has to be blind. ...

For Entire Article Please Visit:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006243 

EI
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Saturday, February 5, 2005 7:56:00 AM
hummmmm, no comments from the left?
JonR
Saturday, February 5, 2005 8:35:00 AM
ted kennedy's exit strategy:

1. keep your head above water

2. don't look back

3. swim to the nearest shore

4. call you attorney

5. make up believable?- exit strategy story

6. wear phoney neck brace

7. payoff grieving?-parents

8. find a new girl to drive you home

9. allow a drunken member of your clan to rape her

10. repeat cycle as needed.

JonR

Charlie
Saturday, February 5, 2005 8:42:00 AM
Teddy

Always has an answer, generally it is wrong!

Charlie

Charlie
Saturday, February 5, 2005 8:43:00 AM
JonR

You forgot the one where he hits her in the head, to make sure she is out!

Charlie

lukin
Saturday, February 5, 2005 9:02:00 AM
Great article...I am a republican and voted for GWB, despite the fact that I don't always agree with his policies. That being said, I think he is doing an excellent job in Iraq. Sure things are confused and often it seems as if the people there are not always so keen to be liberated, but truth is, I think we are doing a great amount of "good" there. I will admit that I didn't care for Clinton, but he had some good points. It seems to me that no matter what Bush does, the democrats are going to harp on it. The economy is strong again, the Iraqi people as well as those in Afganistan have voted in free elections, and we are daily arresting or killing more terrorists who want to destroy us. Are we pissing some people off? Sure. But, unlike Clinton, Bush is not afraid to risk his legacy to do what he thinks ir right. If it were up to me, we would be an isolationist country and say to hell with the rest of the world. But because of our position as the lone superpower in the world, we can't do that. The next best thing would be to help others that are less fortunate than us.

Kennedy, Boxer, and the rest continue to operate under the assumption that the entire war was based on a lie. To a certain extent that is true. We have yet to discover any large cache of WMD's. But the fact remains that Iraq has had them and has used them. The next thing they harp on is that this war is distracting us from our mission to get Osama Bin Laden. It would be nice to capture him or kill him, but the war on terror is more than just one man. Do they honestly think that if we capture him, terrorism would just go away? Would the war on terror be over just like that? No. The war on terror will be a never ending war because people will always hate our way of life. With the war in Iraq, we have established a foothold in the region. We have shown the youth of that nation and those around them that America is not the great evil that they learn about in the schools. Our troops are doing a great job of spreading goodwill to the people their and I think, in time, they will respond positively to it.

Are there troops being killed on a daily basis? Sure, but occupation has always been more risky than war itself. In occupation, the enemy is hidden. We are at a greater disadvantage here because unlike the World War II, we have not comepletely obliterated the countries we fought against. The people's spirits are not comepletely broken. Even though it presents some problems in the way of putting our troops in danger, this is a good thing. Would Kennedy and the like be more satisfied if we approached the war from a more traditional standpoint of destroying the country and bringing it to its knees and then rebuild?

I don't think we will be out of Iraq for a long time. Strategically it's too important for the cause. In fact, we are not really out of any country that we fought against in the last hundred years save Vietnam. We still have troops in Japan, Germany, Korea, the Phillipines, Kosovo, Kuwait, and Afganistan. Where were the calls for exit strategies in those countries?

The president has made it very clear to everyone that he will stay until the job is finished. To me, that is an exit strategy. I don't see why it is that they don't realize that. There is no specific date, but the time will come when our troop strength will not be as large in Iraq.

In any case, I think that the democrats have very small memories. Just a few months ago they wanted Rumsfelds head because there weren't enough troops in Iraq. Now they are whining because we aren't pulling out soon enough.

I say let them continue to whine and complain. The more they do it, the easier it will be to win elections. Let them realize though, that everytime they speak and criticize the troops or our mission there, they strengthen the enemy. Since they hate this country so much, I am sure they are very happy with that.

spadesman
Saturday, February 5, 2005 9:20:00 AM
Great post Lukin.
rem_DaBear
Saturday, February 5, 2005 11:53:00 AM
I'm not a democrat, but I'll take a stab at a reply...

1)First, that the election's legitimacy is questionable.

One could argue the election was illegitimate due to the populace being held in perpetual bondage by the presence of an oppressing army. Or perhaps one could say they are scared to go to the polls due to the violence in the streets caused by the "insurgents". Either way, I wouldn't make those arguements, (there are better ones than that) but I'm sure some will.

2) Second, that its effects will be minor.

The short-term effects will be minor. The long-term effects should be considerable, though not necessarily in the ways the western world wants or expects.

3) Third, that America's presence in Iraq is doing more harm than good by generating terrorism and anti-Americanism where none previously existed.

Take out the last 4 words "where none previously existed" and this is a given. Nothing like an occupying army to legitimize and justify a call to arms for all men to come to the aid of their country. Whether we agree with this justification or not carries no weight.

4) Fourth, that the U.S. has better things to do.

I've got nothing here. We have better things to do, and worse thing to do. Smells like a placeholder.

5) Fifth, that American sacrifices in Iraq are best redeemed not by victory, but by the earliest feasible departure.

Ok, this one is the easiest. There can be NO victory. You can not possibly hope to claim victory in a foreign land if the indigenous peoples despise you. If you believe the Iraqi population loves us, with 200,000 dead civilians and 80-90% unemployment, with the bonehead inhumanities at the prison & in other places, lemme talk to you about the wonderful medicinal properties offered by licking my armpits... How many times will we have to have this beaten into our heads. Anyone, please share with me your vision of victory in Iraq. What does it look like? Do you honesty envision a democratic state that is friendly with the west? Since a prevailing thought on this forum seems to feel Islam will never be satisfied till all non-Muslims are dead, do you expect them to all convert to Christianity? How many Vietnam/Soviet Afghanistan/Somalia scenarios does it take to get the message through. There is no victory possible, only false hope & bloodshed.

One final quip

X) But there's no law in politics that says opposition has to be blind.

Absolutely not. Here in America we reserve that honor for the xenophobic homophobic nimby "Might Makes Right"-wing masses...

Just joshin' ya Bubba 🙂

lukin
Saturday, February 5, 2005 12:39:00 PM
Who would have thought in 1942 that the Germans would once be our allies? How about that the Japanese would be some of our strongest supporters? Who would have thought in 1979 that the Soviet Union would look to us for support and advice? No One

Then why is it so inconceivable that Iraqi citizens would ever become our allies, or at the very least tolerant of us?

While I said earlier that I don't think the war on terror would ever really end, I think that there is a lot of hope for future relations with America and the Mid-east. The situation in Iraq sucks right now, and I am sure that many are angry with America's occupation. But even at 90% unemployment (which is a questionable number, but I'll go with it) they have much less to be angry about than say Japan circa 1946. We destroyed their cities and killed thousands of innocents...and yet a short time later they are our strongest allies. Why can't the same thing happen in Iraq? There is a religious issue to get over, but I think that there is hope for the future.

Charlie
Saturday, February 5, 2005 1:27:00 PM
Something the vocal and liberal Democrats do not understand, or refuse to understand, is that the War on Terror is an ongoing thing and cannot just end with some great nuclear blast or a victory in Iraq! It is an ongoing thing that must be defeated world wide....we have an exit strategy, when the people of Iraq are safe and can run the country then we will exit! But the Nancy Pelosi's and John Kerry's do not want to understand this, funny Hillary gets it now that she is "becoming more of a moderate" to run for President!

Charlie

rem_DaBear
Saturday, February 5, 2005 1:36:00 PM
Interesting.

So WWII as a comparison? Japan the model as opposed to Soviet Afghanistan or American Vietnam? Do you honestly foresee Iraq being a democratic regime friendly to the United States within the next 20 years? Is it even possible? Perhaps with a puppet regime we could eek out a few years, if we pull Reza Pahlavi out of the closet & dust him off...

Another question. In 1946/7 were we still losing servicemen DAILY in Japan or Germany due to "enemy" activity?

Seriously, maybe it's just me, but do you really HONESTLY think this scenario has a better than average chance of turning out as Japan/Germany did following WWII?

rem_DaBear
Saturday, February 5, 2005 2:21:00 PM

---------------------------------

Something the vocal and liberal Democrats do not understand, or refuse to understand, is that the War on Terror is an ongoing thing and cannot just end with some great nuclear blast or a victory in Iraq!

---------------------------------

Of course not. But what the equally vociferous right-wing refuses to admit is that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and the "war on terror" was used as a justification to invade and occupy Iraq after it was proven that the CONCRETE EVIDENCE that Iraq was creating & stockpiling WMDs turned out to be so much manure. Espousing to hunt "terrorists" in a self-made environment that fosters the creation of said "terrorists" has the ethical quality of a canned hunt,

and exponentially broader negative ramifications.

usahog
Saturday, February 5, 2005 2:34:00 PM
DaBear... Welcome to CBid Forum...

I've got to ask, did you miss Gene363's post? or even read the article??

http://www.cigarbid.com/auction/forum/forum.cfm?action=list&forumID=9&messageDisplay=0000000032471 

"Seriously, maybe it's just me, but do you really HONESTLY think this scenario has a better than average chance of turning out as Japan/Germany did following WWII?"

all summed up into one... Yep.. I do see it... look at how much change took place in just freeing Kuwait??

would you rather have terrorist doing acts right here in america with a tyrant like saddam hussain silently leading the funding for this??

There has already been many Victory's come out of out occupation in Iraq... and your spinning it out is nothing new on these forums or in America in general...

Yep your going to have death as a price of Freedom... the Bible even explains that one... So the odds you weigh are different then the odds many others weigh...

Hog

lukin
Saturday, February 5, 2005 2:42:00 PM
I am not certain, but I think that there is hope. I do look at the war in Iraq to have more in common with World War II than in Vietnam, or Soviet Afganistan. In both instances we were attacked here at home (maybe not directly, but I think those in Iraq that are putting up the resistance have the same ideology). Second, I would argue that the actions taken against the Milosovic, Somalia, and Kuwait are a better comparison to the war in Vietnam. In each case, we were protecting our own interests but also fighting to protect the people that were being harmed by others in power. To me, this war is somewhere in between. I think there may come a time in the war against terror when it will become a second vietnam, but this is not it. In this war, I think the majority of Americans (albeit a small majority and shrinking daily) believe that the war in Iraq is in our best interests to protect the public here in America. More importantly, the troops feel the same way. It was not necessarily the case in either Soviet Afganistan or Vietnam.

Will we convince the civilians of Iraq to become allies in the future? Maybe. I think that if we can give them a better life than they had before then the answer is a definite yes. The problem I see is that you have people here who seem determined to stop this. Pulling our troops out now would be detrimental to the well being of our nation and the well being of the Iraqi people. Only time will tell.

As to your point about soldiers dying in Germany and Japan after the war had ended....I ask why then is it a suprise to anyone that our troops are dealing with the same stuff now? If we had decided then, that obviously the German and Japanese people hated us and wanted us out of there, would we have really won? I think that if we had pulled our troops out at the first sign of resistance after the war, we would still be fighting these countries. If WWI taught us anything it is that war is only complete after the victor does its part to heal the nation it destroyed. This is a pretty new concept in war, and one that has worked so far.

Muslim nations have been in a holy war with the west for over a thousand years, and in all this time, have never experienced the rebuilding efforts of the conquering nation. Earlier defeats have resulted in their enslavement, torture, or complete destruction of their land. This does nothing to change the minds of the enemy that their destroyers might just be "good." Instead it only feeds the hate they felt before. We have a chance in Iraq to fix this. It might take years but it can be done, if we use caution and control.

rem_DaBear
Saturday, February 5, 2005 3:16:00 PM
----------------

DaBear... Welcome to CBid Forum...

----------------

Thanx Hog.

----------------

I've got to ask, did you miss Gene363's post? or even read the article??

http://www.cigarbid.com/auction/forum/forum.cfm?action=list&forumID=9&messageDisplay=0000000032471 

----------------

I went up the thread again, and I don't see any posts by Gene363, I'll follow your link & read the article shortly.

-------------------

all summed up into one... Yep.. I do see it... look at how much change took place in just freeing Kuwait??

-------------------

I assume you're referring to Desert Storm. Indeed, we ousted an oppressing army and the Kuwaiti's were happy. Countries tend to hate foreign occupying armies. They were somewhat less happy when they learned we green-lighted Saddam's invasion of Kuwait in the first place, but we don't like to talk about that do we. Be that as it may, I'm not sure how this relates to an Islamic country loving us after we occupy them "for their own good".

----------------------

would you rather have terrorist doing acts right here in america with a tyrant like saddam hussain silently leading the funding for this??

----------------------

Saddam Hussein is a **** granted, but a secular ****, hence our wholehearted support of him prior to (1990)DS, questionable Kurdish genocide(1988) included.

Painting him as a leading funder for a militant Islamic group is an interesting notion, questionable, but certainly not unprecedented. Hmmm... I wonder what other secular government funded an Islamic fundamentalist group, whose most popular member was UBL? Oh yeah, that was us. Remember the "freedom fighters" of the Mujahideen? Did you know we also channeled him money and supplies through the Pakistani Intelligence Agency to help him commit acts of terror in Serbia? But thats just another fact we prefer not to talk about. Onward.

----------------

There has already been many Victory's come out of out occupation in Iraq... and your spinning it out is nothing new on these forums or in America in general...

----------------

I guess by spinning you mean writing facts that shake your concocted reality as seen through your red white & blue tinted glasses. Damn, sorry about that. 🙂

---------------------

Yep your going to have death as a price of Freedom... the Bible even explains that one... So the odds you weigh are different then the odds many others weigh...

---------------------

Spoken as eloquently as Pope Urban II. Nuff said there.

This is what truly amazes me, political/religious debate on a cigar auction website. It's great fun, but I must confess I found it by accident. I was just looking for peoples experiences with various smokes, and voila, here I am. You never know what surprises life has in store for you!

rem_DaBear
Saturday, February 5, 2005 3:23:00 PM
Lukin:

-------------------

As to your point about soldiers dying in Germany and Japan after the war had ended....I ask why then is it a suprise to anyone that our troops are dealing with the same stuff now?

-------------------

Your post was good, but you misconstrued my question.

DaBear:

-------------------

Another question. In 1946/7 were we still losing servicemen DAILY in Japan or Germany due to "enemy" activity?

-------------------

I asked "were we", I didn't say "we were". The answer was no, we weren't. Other than that I see your position more clearly now, and while I don't agree with it I appreciate your explaining it. Thanks!

usahog
Saturday, February 5, 2005 3:29:00 PM
LMAO @/with DeBear... Yep I also found this site the same way back in 2000... been here ever since...

you've got allot of catching up to do.. but for now.. you haven't missed a mark on many issue's some of the other Anti-War members on here have missed...

BTW (Lukin very well put in your post above!!!!)

many things in past history was for one reason or another.. and we could have a whole topic dedicated throughout as to why this or that happened...

but it will bring us back to where we are today and EI's original thead as Exit Strategy... the left would have already yanked or been yanking us out of there leaving the job undone... the right as it is now will be keeping us there to get the job done and completed correctly!!!!

Nuff Said

Hog

lukin
Saturday, February 5, 2005 3:45:00 PM
This link, while I concede comes from a conservative site....has great excerpts from articles in the New York Times circa 1945 after the treaty with Germany had ended and American rebuilding effort began. I think you might enjoy reading it (even if only for the excerpts from the papers) and do your own comparison

BTW...I have also enjoyed this discussion thoroughly as so far it has failed to develop into nothing more than a name calling hatefest.

Here is the link:

http://www.nationalreview.com/levin/levin200406011433.asp 

lukin
Saturday, February 5, 2005 3:48:00 PM
let me rephrase my statement here since it sounds a little muddy...I have enjoyed this discussion as well. Normally a lot of these political threads are nothing more than name calling hatefests which I don't really care to take part in. We have avoided this despite our differences in opinion and have so far, had a really good discussion
lukin
Saturday, February 5, 2005 3:49:00 PM
let me rephrase my statement here since it sounds a little muddy...I have enjoyed this discussion as well. Normally a lot of these political threads are nothing more than name calling hatefests which I don't really care to take part in. We have avoided this despite our differences in opinion and have so far, had a really good discussion