RICKAMAVEN
bloody spaniard
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:01:00 AM
Didn't read the whole article.

But it figures, doesn't it, Rick?

00camper
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:09:00 AM
Hmmmmm...

Let's see if we can simplify this for those who have forgotten their economics lessons

[1] Taxes are higher here in the US than in other countries.

[2] Rational people want to pay the least amount of tax possible.

[3] Keeping your overseas profits overseas reduces your corporations overall tax bill.

[4] Your government recognizes that taxing a corporations' foreign income at a higher rate than another country tells the corporation to keep its profits out of the US.

[5] Lowering the tax rate on foreign profits induces corporations to bring the profits home.

[6] Those billions of repatriated dollars now circulate in the US econonmy where they work to provide jobs and profits to other domestic companies who pay US taxes.

[7] Someone on this board will decide this is wrong because it looks like drug companies are "getting away" with "evading" taxes.

[8] This article points out the basic flaw of the corporate income tax system in the age of globalization.

Class dismissed.

lofty1
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:21:00 AM
didn't read any of the article. the website required that i register to read the article. i did not. can you post the text from the article?
RICKAMAVEN
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:01:00 AM
lofty1

May 8, 2005

Drug Makers Reap Benefits of Tax Break

By ALEX BERENSON

A new tax break for corporations is allowing the biggest American drug makers to return as much as $75 billion in profits from international havens to the United States while paying a fraction of the normal tax rate.

The break is part of the American Jobs Creation Act, signed into law by President Bush in October, which allows companies a one-year window to return foreign profits to the United States at a 5.25 percent tax rate, compared with the standard 35 percent rate.

Any company with profits in other countries can take advantage of the law, but drug makers have been the biggest beneficiaries because they can move profits overseas relatively easily, independent analysts say.

The money the companies are bringing home has come from many years of using legal loopholes in the tax law to aggressively shelter their profits from United States taxes, tax lawyers say. While the companies' tax returns are private, fragmentary information about their tax payments is buried inside their annual financial statements.

Those figures show that the drug makers have told the Internal Revenue Service for years that their profits come mainly from international sales, even though the prices of medicines are far higher in the United States and almost 60 percent of their sales take place in America.

Representatives of most of the big drug companies declined to com-ment beyond their annual reports, but in a statement Eli Lilly noted that several factors depressed its United States profits. Pfizer said it was following the intent of the law.

Though the companies stand behind their accounting, financial analysts and tax lawyers say that the drug makers' claim defies reality and that their profits come mostly from sales in the United States. But the I.R.S. lacks the resources to challenge the companies effectively, the analysts and lawyers say. As a result, the six major companies - Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Wyeth and Lilly - collectively pay a federal tax rate of less than 15 percent on their worldwide profits, with some companies paying much less.

Already, four of the six drug makers have collectively announced plans to return $56 billion in profits to the United States. Two others say they are still considering but could repatriate an additional $18 billion. Had the six companies faced standard federal taxes on those profits, they would have paid $26 billion to the United States. Instead, they will pay less than $4 billion. Chris Senyek, an accounting analyst at Bear Stearns, said drug companies would probably make up about half of all the money repatriated by publicly traded companies.

During this window, returning money to the United States is to the advantage of the companies because they can spend the cash here rather than having to use it overseas as tax laws generally require. Lawmakers have said their main intention for the law was to encourage American companies to build new operations and hire workers. Congress passed the law in response to pressure from the European Union to resolve a long-running trade dispute.

Although the act is intended to create jobs, Pfizer said last month that it would cut its annual costs by $4 billion over the next three years. Pfizer, which will repatriate at least $28 billion under the act, did not say how many jobs it planned to eliminate, but analysts expect the company to shrink its work force by thousands of people. Mr. Senyek said the law would create an insignificant number of jobs because companies can easily work around provisions in the law meant to stop them from using the money for dividends to shareholders rather than new hiring.

After the break expires, companies will probably go back to stockpiling profits overseas as they wait for another tax holiday in a few years, tax lawyers say.

The major drug makers use a variety of complex but legal tactics to move profits from the United States to low-tax countries like Ireland and Singapore where they have large manufacturing operations, said H. David Rosenbloom, director for the international tax program at New York University Law School.

"The law is complicated, but what's going on is perhaps less complicated," he said. "They're doing everything they can to maximize their profit in Ireland and minimize the profit in the countries where the sales occur."

The government can challenge the way the companies allocate their profits internally. But the companies have usually been able to defeat the I.R.S., Mr. Rosenbloom said.

"There's a limit to what they can do, because these cases are huge. They're very expensive," Mr. Rosenbloom said of the I.R.S.

The companies declined to discuss the specific strategies they use to minimize taxes. But the result of their efforts can be seen in a remarkable set of figures inside their annual financial reports.

Pfizer, the world's largest drug company, said that in 2004 it had only $4.4 billion in pretax profits in the United States, compared with $9.6 billion internationally, though most of its sales came in the United States. The company says that its profit margins on international sales were almost three times as high as on American sales.

Other companies reported similar trends. The biggest imbalance occurred at Eli Lilly, which reported that it had about $200 million in profits from United States sales in 2004, compared with $2.8 billion in profits from sales everywhere else.

Because they report relatively low United States profits, the companies pay little in American taxes compared to their profits. Pfizer reported paying only $1.2 billion in state and federal income taxes in 2004, 9 percent of its worldwide pretax profit. Excluding a one-time payment related to its plans to repatriate money it has sheltered overseas, Lilly reported paying just $37 million in state and federal taxes last year, only 1 percent of its worldwide pretax profit.

In its statement, Lilly said product liability suits, one-time charges related to business restructurings, increased pension expenses and research and development costs all cut into profits here, the company said.

"The intent of this legislation is to encourage companies to invest income earned outside the U.S. in their U.S. operations," Pfizer said in a statement. "That is what Pfizer and more than 300 other U.S.-based companies are doing."

Collectively, the six drug makers paid about $6 billion in federal and state taxes, a fraction of their pretax worldwide profits of $43 billion. Johnson & Johnson accounted for about half the American taxes paid. It garners more than half of its sales from consumer products and medical devices, whose profits are harder to transfer overseas.

The companies' assertions that they are more profitable overseas than in the United States is hard to believe, said Dr. Alan Sager, director of the health reform program at the Boston University School of Health.

Prescription drug prices are far higher in the United States than in other industrialized countries, where prices are generally government-controlled.

In one typical example, a three-month supply of 40-milligram tablets Lipitor, a cholesterol-lowering medicine from Pfizer, costs $305 at Walgreens.com, the Internet site for the largest United States pharmacy. An Internet pharmacy in Canada lists the same medicine for $174.

"I'm really at a loss to find a reasonable explanation for the phenomenon, a real-world explanation," Dr. Sager said. Outside the United States, "there just doesn't seem to be any place on earth for the high profits to be generated, which leaves us with the extraterrestrial options."

Wall Street analysts who follow the pharmaceutical industry also say most of the drug makers' profits come from the United States.

David Moskowitz, an analyst at Friedman, Billings, Ramsey, estimated that at least 60 percent of the drug industry's worldwide profits come from the United States. Higher American drug prices more than make up for higher marketing costs here, he said. Other analysts estimate that as much as 75 percent of the industry's worldwide profits are generated in the United States.

But companies can hide those profits from the I.R.S. by moving their drug manufacturing overseas, said Martin A. Sullivan, contributing editor of Tax Notes, a nonprofit journal that examines tax issues. Companies transfer drug patents to their own foreign subsidiaries, he said.

The subsidiary then helps pay for research on the drug. If the medicine is approved for sale in the United States, the subsidiary manufactures the drug for a few cents a pill.

The pills are then shipped to the United States, where they are sold to a pharmacy or a wholesale company for several dollars each. But the parent company claims that almost all the profit should go to the subsidiary, not to the parent in the United States.

"Then the name of the game is to have that foreign subsidiary pay as little as possible back to the United States for the rights to all that income," Mr. Sullivan said.

The law will encourage drug makers to become even more aggressive about shifting American profits overseas because the companies will assume that they can lobby Congress for another tax holiday in a few years, said Sheldon Cohen, senior counsel at Morgan, Lewis & Bockius.

"I've always been against tax holidays or amnesties on the basis that if we do this, it tells companies or individuals that we'll do it again," Mr. Cohen said.

lofty1
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:08:00 AM
thanks, rick.

yeah, that's ridiculous. i think the government should try to do something else about the companies hiding profits in the US. maybe they could tax them based on revenue instead of profit. they could lower the rate, but they'd get some of all sales. i'm sure there's a reason this wouldn't work, but i'm also sure there's something we could do. i just don't know enough about the laws and commerce to know what we could do.

RICKAMAVEN
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:13:00 AM
lofty1

"i just don't know enough about the laws and commerce to know what we could do."

exactly. not only do the corporations know the laws, they write them for congress and the senate to pass.

remember cheny's first meeting about energy in the first term. his meeting which was public business was done in secret and he has refused to name those that were their advising the government on how to run it's energy policy.

lofty1
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:18:00 AM
i think this has been a problem in this country for many years. i don't know if you're implying the current administration is the cause or not, but i certainly don't believe it is.
usahog
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:27:00 AM
Drug Company's "Prescription Medications" is the biggest raquet going these days.. and ever since the Hillary Clinton "I'm going to fix the Medicare/Medicade Campaign (And the Bottom fell out of the market in 1996-97??) every politition and rich b@stard with the inside "Clinton" information waited for that stock to fall through the floor before they jumped on it.. it was less then a week later the hillary clinton plan was shelfed and stocks started to pick back up and we're here today where FDA is in the pockets of the rich b@stards and the one's who are suffering are the American People with medications that get approval at the wiave of the all mighty dollar!!!

what you don't know wont hurt you type mentality... see the WMD thread I posted about 51 Biochemists being Murdered since 1994 but most after 911 happened?? there's links to read up...

Vince Foster was at the wrong place at the wrong time LMAO!!!!

Hog

00camper
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:56:00 AM
Let me get this straight. You want to tax a US corporation's foreign profits as if they were earned here? Hmmmm. If we tax business enough maybe they'll leave.
MACS
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:20:00 PM
I still have a hard time with the 'brackets'.

Lets see... it's totally fair to tax a guy, who is busting his hump to earn more, at a higher rate than the guy who is making enough to squeak by.

I have a hard time agreeing with that statement.

I also have a hard time swallowing the fact that people with a lot of kids get more money back in their returns than they put into the system, thanks to 'earned income credit'.

Return all the money they put in, but don't give them a dime more, I say. Why should they get my tax dollars because they were too stupid to stop having kids? And yes, I said stupid... if you can't afford 3 kids and you have 6, that's stupid.

Maybe irresponsible is a better word? One shouldn't bring children into the world if one doesn't have the resources to feed, educate, clothe and nurture said child.

I think welfare should have term limits and put more into helping the parents improve their job skills than anything else. We've already proven they'll sit back and collect it for as long as it rolls in, otherwise.

My opinions folks. Flame away.

Buckwheat
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:26:00 PM
MACS, I can't believe that you are so selfish and that you think it is unfair for people to get more money than they have earned. It just goes to show that you don't know anything about socialism.
lofty1
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:35:00 PM
camper, who are you talking to? i haven't seen anyone that is suggesting what you said.
MACS
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:41:00 PM
I'm sorry Julian. I'm pretty uneducated. I barely got my high school diploma before shipping off to boot camp and becoming a productive, tax-paying member of society.

My wife and I had ONE child, because neither of us were making enough money to afford another at the time... and by the time we were making enough, it was too late to have more.

Sooooooo... consequently, we can concentrate on raising the one we DO have in a nice home, with nice things and teach him to focus on HIS education so HE can become a productive, tax-paying member of society. Oh wait... he is 16 and working at McDonalds... he IS paying taxes.

Boy, were we misguided or what?

00camper
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:51:00 PM
lofty1,

I quote:

"The break is part of the American Jobs Creation Act, signed into law by President Bush in October, which allows companies a one-year window to return foreign profits to the United States at a 5.25 percent tax rate, compared with the standard 35 percent rate. "

The complaint of the article seems to be that the foreign subsidiaries of US corportions are getting away with something because Congress reduced the tax rate on foreign profits from 35% to 5.25% as an inducement to bring the money into the US.

So, I merely pointed out that, on the one hand people complain about US companies making their widgets overseas and then, on the other hand, complain that US companies don't pay their share of taxes.

You can't have it both ways. Taxing a corporation's profits is a sure-fire way to get them to leave the USA for places where the tax burden is lower. Taxing a US corporation's foreign profits at a high enough rate is a sure-fire way to keep those profits outside the US permanently. If the foreign profits of US corporations are put to work INSIDE the US they work a whole lot harder for the US than when the dollars are working OUTSIDE the US.

The title of the thread is "Lets talk about welfare cheats" as if this is some kind of cheating on the part of US corporations. As far as the companies are concerned, the money can stay outside the US indefinitely. It's less efficient outside the US, but at a 35% penalty, even 65% as efficient as the US is better than bringing it home.

Like MACS said - the companies are being penalized for earning a profit. Actually, the companies themselves aren't penalized. The people paying the penalty are the shareholders and employees. An inefficient tax system always costs more than people think.

Sorry for the rant. The corporate income tax is a sore point with me.

RICKAMAVEN
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:58:00 PM
MACS(SW)

i don't see anything flammable.

i am not familiar with "earned income credit" so i have nothing to say about it.

as far as children, in early america so many children died either at child birth or soon after, and with little if any knowledge of birth control, having a large family that basically took care if itself with help given and returned to neighbors made good sense.

now with the costs of medical care, a family can and should plan on the number of children it can afford.

i don't need my back 40 cleared in exchange for milk, butter, and egs.

RICKAMAVEN
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:11:00 PM
00camper

corporate welfare as i call it is a sore spot with me also.

if the tax rate is 35% and it is changed by fiat to 5.25% it is welfare on a large scale. much larger then my welfare mother hitting the government for an extra dozen eggs or a bigger cut of steak.

the extra money doesn't dribble down eough to incease the stock holders return by mor then a few cents.

the big profits are returned to management who own proxy cards and can and do vote themselves unimaginable to most people, salaries and perks and should they be removed from the boards of directors by rivals with more proxy cards, there is always the golden parachute of the retirement package.

rayder1
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 2:45:00 PM
Two words will solve it all. Flat tax.

Instead of the loophole filled mounds of bureaucratic paperwork, how about everyone pay a set percentage of their income as tax. Period.

The IRS would have a massive increase in complaince, cut zero return checks, have no need for audit. Just simple tax collection.

If every income earner paid 5% of his / her income to tax regardless of income, family, property etc. There would be little room for cheating or errors. If you aren't employed but have investments and self employment then you pay a percentage of your profits or interest earned. If someone has money, but has no "income" per se, then they pay a smaller percentage based on their assets. Corporations pay a set amount..period.

Maybe I'm not on the same page as most others on this, but how can it not work? Everyone in the US has some sort of paper trail to their income and assets. Those that fail to report or try and skate on their taxes goes to jail.

RICKAMAVEN
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:00:00 PM
rayder1

i must digest you flat tax idea and get back to you.

00camper
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:44:00 PM
RICKAMAVEN,

We're just going to have to agree to disagree about the tax reduction.

rayder1,

The flat tax has been proposed before by a lot of politicians. It never gets very far. The political left hates it because it doesn't punish the rich. The political right hates it because it takes in whole classes of income that were off limits before. Others have proposed a VAT (value added tax) that functions a lot like a national sales tax.