Just wanted to see if anyone was paying attention!!

No, really, here is my question.

How did the founders of the US interpret the word God? Christian God (i.e. Jesus) or as a universal God (i.e. Budda as God, Jesus as God, Holy Trinity as God, etc....)? I think that there were significant differences in opinion on this issue between the different founding fathers. Mainly, Jefferson and Adams. Can anyone shed additional light on this?

IMHO, I think they purposely left it OPEN to interpretation.

They were certainly aware that different gods were being worshipped around the world, and I think they would have been specific if they had the inclination to trust only one.

when i talaked with them, they spoke of god period.

he wasn't spoken of as a christian god or a budda god. he was just god who gave us these inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

the christian right which now has entirely too much too say and too much power, has invaded the classrooms, the newspapers, and the administration in an attempt to godify this country in the name of their god.

this started with the advent of radio when a few nut cases, known as bible thumpers found they could get people to give them money for their "church" by scaring the crap out of their listeners, mostly lost and isolated people that needed solace and instead of finding it by reading their bibles, allowed some stranger to tell them what the bible said and further what god said as they interpreted the bible.

fast forward to the tv evangalists whose persuasive voices convinced people not only to send them money, but commit to give them money on a regular basis, all for the glory of god, represented by these well coifed, expensively dressed entertainers, with their wives sporting a beehive hairdo and makeup painted on with a spray gun.

the more you pledged, the bigger the prize. at least the revrend ike had the decency to say if you pledge money to me you have to go out and earn enough to meet your obligations and that will force you to get off your dead asses, get a job, and make money for both of us.

there was a preacher here in LA who taught his interpretation of the bible from both a religious and secular position. when he finished his program he would say i am trying to teach you the word. if you feel as though you learned something from me, contribute so i can continue to teach. if you didn't feel you learned anything, don't send me anything.

now the christian god jesus, who fought the oppressive government and preached decency and do unto others, has been turned into a dictator who demands that you teach creationism now being called intelligent design, a not so subtle way of breaching the two opposing viewpoints.

of course this has nothing whatsoever to do with the teachings of jesus, but in their infinite arrogance the christian right will do whatever is necessary to advance their narrow minded fundamentalists beliefs.

fundamentalists: an organized, militant evangelical movement originating in the United States in 1920 in opposition to Liberalism and secularism.

in 80 short years they have begun to corrupt the very democracy that gave them voice.

Rick, who wrote that of what you posted??

Most all of us came to this land by Boats... can you prove that God wasn't already here when our forefathers landed?? if you ask the Native Americans they speak of a spirit that walked on this land they also dance and pray to this spirit as a God who watches over them and gives them the things from this earth??

So please enlighten me to the author of the above you mentioned...

Hog

usahog

i wrote it all by myself. so if you have a disagreement, here i am exposed to all.

if you notice my last postings i am refering to the source of my copy and pastes as has been request several times.

yes the native americans believed in a spirit, but he was not a fundamentalist nor a christian.

we taught the native americans christianity even as we wrapped them in blankets infected with measles and stole their land and there was this incident at wounded knee just before new years 1890.

Ah do not forget the Trail of Tears!!!

but the Indians already had and have their own beliefs...

one of them is how foolish the whitemen are...

So when do you think the Government will settle out of court over the stolen lands of the Black Hills??

Hog

usahog

a few more "indian" casinos and it won't matter, the "indians" will be able to buy back all the stolen land and we, the conqurers, will all live on reservations.

The founding fathers of our nation were deist. The basic idea behind deism is that there is a God who made the Universe. They believed this because there is so much order that it is undeniable that an intelligent being created the universe. Not another created being, but one that is uncreated, which, would have to be a spirit, since, all material beings are create.

They also believed that after God made the universe he left us to our own reason. He does not have a personal relationship with us and he doesn't even know what we're doing. We're here on our own. I don't know if they believed in an after life. They must have thought that life was good and that God made us to be happy, since, there is talk of the inalianable rights to life, liberty and persuit of happiness.

There were others who thought we should revere God at some level, they might have been Christians. So, we have things like in God we trust on our Money. This is an obvious reference to God's providence and his concern for us. It is not all one sided.

You never see the state promoting a church or enforcing religous beliefs on others. Any claim to thank God or ask for God's assistence is a personal expression of faith, which, we have the right to express. Also, as regards moral laws, our leaders have the responsibility to promote good for all men. That is why most anti-abortion politicians are religious. These convictions can be abused however, and so with any system of belief whether liberal or conservative there are abuses that come about.

One last note, Buddist do not believe in God. They believe everything is a part of everything else. They believe in the respect and care of all living things and strive to be at peace with themselves. In ordinate desires for sex, money and power are grave contributions to the disturbance of the soul. The different religions of the world have this basic understand of doing the good and it is amazing at how much they have in common. Some even work together. The different ideas of the good bound to overflow into politics, but that doesn't mean that religion is being forced into politics. It means religion is working for the good.

Very well stated Rodnie..

Hog

rodnie, thank you for correcting my ignorance on Buddhism. Somewhere my comparative religion professor is pissed ;-}

I don't agree that all of the founding fathers were Deists. I thought that there were two camps of founding fathers (the deists and the christians).

Rodnie is partially correct. A number of the FF's were deist. Some represented Christianity, and I believe there was an atheist or two on the "panel" as well.

Rick says.......we taught the native americans christianity even as we wrapped them in blankets infected with measles and stole their land and there was this incident at wounded knee just before new years 1890.

Yup, it happened. However, I doubt you could offer any type of reasoning that this was standard practice of Christianity or the official stance of any church. The bad actions of a few don't dictate the beliefs and practices of the many. Another problem is that simply because one claims to be anything doesn't make it true. We all fail at to achieve our own goals and ideals; some are simply making false claims.

Rick claims.......fundamentalists: an organized, militant evangelical movement originating in the United States in 1920 in opposition to Liberalism and secularism.

And what has secularism done? The opposite. It has attempted to remove God from the very fabric of our society. It desires to change definitions and rights to fit their agenda. Isn't that what democracy is? We vote our conscience believing it to be the best? Isn't that what many here told me is the method by which we decide truth and ethics? Yet, according to this line of reasoning, a society has done the opposite. We can't have it both ways.

Rick says.......this started with the advent of radio when a few nut cases, known as bible thumpers found they could get people to give them money for their "church" by scaring the crap out of their listeners, mostly lost and isolated people that needed solace and instead of finding it by reading their bibles, allowed some stranger to tell them what the bible said and further what god said as they interpreted the bible.

I'll agree with most of this. Modern eschatological teachings are created from the viewpoints of paranoid people. One world governments, mark of the beast, last days hype is standard fair for most American churches. It drives a large market. However, most of Christianity doesn't hold to this belief; it's mostly a U.S. phenomena. The second part I am going to disagree with, in principle. While I suggest everybody read some religious books (I've read several besides the Bible as well), A book so large and written over such a lengthy period of time isn't always easy to understand. As well, the idea that everybodies individual ideas, many times opposing interpretations, are equally valid, is philosphically indefensible. The core of the orthodox Church has held to a core of beliefs for some time.

Rodnie stated:

"You never see the state promoting a church or enforcing religous beliefs on others. Any claim to thank God or ask for God's assistence is a personal expression of faith, which, we have the right to express. Also, as regards moral laws, our leaders have the responsibility to promote good for all men. That is why most anti-abortion politicians are religious. These convictions can be abused however, and so with any system of belief whether liberal or conservative there are abuses that come about. "

What a great paragraph. I wish I were able to convey my thoughts as clearly as that.

Tailgater,

Thanks for the comment, it really means a lot to me. I'm a philosphy grad student trying to get my thesis done and defended. Comments like these are encouraging.

Sorry I wasn't clear on the fathers of our countries religious beliefs. Certainly they were not all deist, there were Christians both Protestant and Catholic. The referencs to God in the Constitution don't appeal to the Trinity or to Jesus, it appeals to God, the rational being behind the creation of the universe. It has deist conotations to it.

Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.

Thomas Jefferson

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.

George Washington

I believe I shall,in some shape or other,always exist; and, with all the inconveniences human life is liable to, I shall not object to a new edition of mine, hoping, however, that the errata of the last may be corrected.

Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

Our contest is not only whether we ourselves shall be free, but whether there shall be left to mankind an asylum on earth for civil and religious liberty."

-- Samuel Adams (1722-1893), American revolutionary

"whoever smelt it, dealt it."

my son (last week sometime)

little smartass.

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

-- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), 3rd US President, Democrat

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?"

-- James Madison (1751-1836), 4th US President, Democrat