What are your religious views? As for me, I call myself a militant agnostic. I don't know and you don't know either. I am not unsympathetic to man's desire to plumb the infinite and certainly I support many Judeo-Christian values, but I despise organized religion. I didn't suddenly come to this viewpoint. This is where I am right now on a long odyssey that isn't over yet.

I don't want to argue and it would be a waste of time to try to convince me that I'm wrong. I've stated my core belief. Now I invite you to state yours.

Let's just say I didn't evolve from some primordial ooze. Monkees are STILL monkees, Apes are STILL apes. I feel real bad for anyone that's still in denial or in a non-committal mood on Judgement Day.

and I feel the believing in something only because you're afraid of the consequences of not believing in it is cowardly. I'M NOT SAYING YOU'RE A COWARD. Maybe you have some other reason for what you believe. I haven't found one.

I believe that God gave the World His only Son so that we could share an eternal life with Him.

John 3:16

And that's all I've got to say about that. Had I known that my comments would be used as fodder I wouldn't have posted them! There was NO disrespect meant towards you OR your beliefs JR.

DrMaddVibe, I meant no disrespect. I wasn't using your comments as fodder or trying to make a joke. You were saying what you believe and I was posting a response. It bothers me that you think I was being vindictive. Why can't people discuss this topic without anger? What hope for the human race is there if people of different beliefs can't sit down and discuss them without anger?

DMV, I apologize for any insult I may have unwittingly offered you.

Everyone else please disregard this thread. I don't want to be the cause of anger and bad feelings. I should have known better.

JR, I think anger is THE common denominator one finds surely and quickly in a discussion on differing beliefs ... that anger has consistently translated into violence and war since the dawn of history ... anger at those with differing beliefs is the root of the problem in the middle-east right now, irrespective of what the President says about their hating us because we've got freedom and his detractors saying that it's about their oil ...

The existance of Israel and our support of that country is the greatest sticking point of all in the hatred those people have for us ... not that our conspicuous consumption isn't a factor, but religious differences account for the biggest portion of the gap between us ...

My own beliefs are poorly defined ... while I don't have a clear-cut belief in divinity, I don't have a DIS-belief either and my lack of urgency in reaching a belief somehow seems to anger people on BOTH sides of the question ... being a native of Utah where more than half the population is of a demanding religion and the other half is consequently equally strong in THEIR expression of their differing beliefs, you can well imagine why I was able to move away from the mountains there which I love dearly ...

It seems to me that for some reason that I've never been able to understand, NOT taking issue with people over their beliefs isn't enough ... too many seem to demand your agreement with their views ...

Oddly enough, I think the whole topic is related to the thing that binds the participants in this forum together ... our love of cigars is in some respects like a religion and we're each having to take a stand against all the disbelievers around us on a daily basis ... coming here is, for a lot of us, the equivilent of attending church ... we are surrounded by people whose 'beliefs' are like our own and we join together in a fellowship to praise the glory of cigars ...

Steve, you're the Pope of the Church of The Big Cigar!

Hallelujah, JW ... the good Saints of Maduro, Oscuro, Criollo and Corojo be praised ... blessed be the name of the Virgin Sun Grown ...

And Our lady Of The Perpetual Cigar.

Religion really gets people angry no matter what their beliefs may be! Look at all the wars and battles fought over religion!!!!

For the record, I believe in God!

Charlie

Me too...

I have had a long and sometimes tumultuous road through discerning my faith or lack thereof. I was raised Catholic and was a firm believer going into high school. But I’ve always been a free thinker and a follower of logic. In high school and college I kept an open mind and because of my search for logic noticed my “beliefs” changing.

Through my spiritual travels I have found myself, and now openly define/identify myself as an atheist. Like JR, I have a core value system similar to the Judeo Christian beliefs, but it’s only because I have thought through the issues/values and decided for myself how I stand on the issues.

I also whole-heartedly agree with JR on the issue of “faith.” My common phrase is this, “A person who cannot, or will not, question their beliefs and therefore be able to justify their beliefs has nothing to believe in except what they’re told.” I have respect for ANYONE that has gone through this self questioning process and has affirmed their beliefs, no matter what those beliefs are, be they Christian, Mormon, etc… As long as those beliefs are not the detrimental sort that we see in the Middle East, live and let live I say!!

chris

My religous road has had some interesting turns. During my teen years, I would spend some time each summer at the Catholic seminary, studying, and determining if the preisthood was right for me. After my fourth summer, I realized, my ambition was not to be a priest, but in fact to be called "Father Mean" or "Reverend Mean".

Bless me, Father Mean for I have sinned. I started a controversial thread. What is my penance?

well, you asked for this, JR ...

Your pennance will be to send each of us a cigar ... LOL

How did I know that was coming?

I had a Christian upbringing, and would like to be a true believer, in the best sense of that word. Intellect gets in the way. One of the questions I keep grappling with is: if I were God, and created a bunch of complicated but simple beings, would I allow the ones born 2000 years after my last direct communication with the world burn and suffer for eternity unless they firmly believed I existed? What's the big deal about someone believing something? I might have more of an appreciation for people who didn't know what to believe but were kind to old people and had a positive influence on children. The idea of a good and just God who knows the future allowing some to be born just so they can suffer eternal damnation is not very appealing to me. What would a bad God do? Why weren't we offered our choice of 72 years of Free Will or an eternity in Paradise? Wasn't Free Will just forced on us?

Who today has more faith than the fundamentalist muslim? And who is more evil from a Judeo-Christian perspective?

I don't really want to offend anyone either (okay, screw fundamentalist muslims and TV 'evangelists'). I do enjoy discussions of religion and politics, the two great taboos of those who wish to get along. Just my 5 cents.

Yes JR, you must send Steve a cigar. In fact you should send all Steve's a cigar. You now have the opportunity to spread the good word to all the Steve's. From this action will spring forth eternal peace. Or enter four spring peas, I'm not sure.

I'm your prime example of a good Christian gone bad...there's hope for me yet!

I believe in a creator whom I call God. I believe God cares about us and gave us free will. The reason there are bad things in this world is because of free will. God lets us screw things up because to him(her) it's no biggie. It will all get fixed in the end. I question the divnity of Jesus. He was a tuned in guy, no question. I embrace his teachings. But John is WAY out of step with the other gospels. I wonder why that is. I suspect it may have something to do with the political agenda of Constantine and the early Popes. In early depictions, Jesus and the Saints are a lot like Jupiter and the Roman Pantheon. It is food for thought. The Trinity? That is a muddled construct for sure. Salvation through Jesus? Sounds like a selling point to me. The baptists say all works are for naught if you don't accept Jesus as savior. I don't buy that. I think works count for a lot as long as your heart and mind are right. Believe what Jesus taught. Not what other people taught about Jesus. Put your faith in God period. How can that be wrong? That's what I think. Have fun with it!