Perhaps we're not being clear enough regarding illegal immigration. I know I've spouted off in order to irk a response, only to be called names rather than encourage debate. I'll take responsiblitiy for that.

And speaking of responsibility, let's look at the illegal immigration debate:

A. Illegal Immigrants don't belong here. I don't care if you hate all immigrants, or if they're your family, or anywhere in between. They don't belong.

B. Wanting immigrants to come here via legal methods is NOT racist. Not even close.

C. Immigrants are important to the fabric of this country. Both financially and culturally. Few intelligent people doubt this.

D. "C" is not a reason to allow people to come here illegally.

E. It will be impossible to "reform" our immigration policy until AFTER we stop the influx of illegals from entering our country. What good is a new set of rules for a group of people who don't follow rules?

F. Rallies and protests in support of illegal activity are counter-productive. They create animosity, and they are a farce: See "E" for further detail.

These tidbits are my own. There is much greater detail to get the whole picture, but the bulk of my opinions (my REAL opinions) are firmly based in fact and not emotion.

If I missed any points from either side of the aisle, feel free to make them a point of discussion.

Yawn

tailgater

stay with me. when someone tells me he is a christian when the suject of religion hasn't come up, i check my wallet. it is usually said indirectly as, i have to leave now,i't later for church or i'n sorry i didn't stop in to pay you what i owe you but i had to go to church.

when someone tells me what they think about some subject and starts with "these are facts", i know they proably are not. they are usually the opinion of the author and not really facts.

with that in mind, let's tal;k about il;legal immigration, which is something like breaking and entering and stealing my silverware. it's a crime even though you are not able to get work and your kids are starving. when they asked willie sutton why he robbed banks, he said because that is where the money is.

A i agree completely and i am not interested in they do jobs that americans won't do. that's BS

B

Rick you alright? you never got passed (B) here??

Hog

sorry about spliting my answer but my computer just shut down and now i am up and running.

sorry you are bored johnsf, turn on the tv, american idol reruns are starting

back to B correct. the race card is like the duece in dueces wild, you can use it anytime for any reason.

nothing to disagree with for C D. i'm looking for something to argue about but haven't found it yet.

maybe E

companies like nike have their shoes made in some third world country for a nickle and sell them here for hundreds. as long as companies can hire people below the minimum wage and provide no benefits, why would they want their bought and paid for congressmen and women and senators to get in tghe way of their cheap labor. my refrence to congress and the senate is both sides of the aisle. i don't think one side has a monopoly on corruption.

there is some proof that some of the illegals commit crimes, but that won't influence reform, because it's never goin to happen.

the rallys and marches are just going to piss people off because we know a proportion of the marchers are here illegally. it's like a bunch of jewel thiefs marching and demanding shorter sentences for all jewel thiefs.

thank you for this "These tidbits are my own. There is much greater detail to get the whole picture, but the bulk of my opinions (my REAL opinions) are firmly based in fact and not emotion."

reread my second paragraph on my first post. one man's "facts" are another man's "not facts."

Is that adult only or racist only lettuce boy?

Lewcipher

it's adults only and who or what is lettuce boy

Rickamaven,

I think that Demon Boy was refering to the Mexican National Anthem thread post#43 when referring to Tailgater. What a refeshing post that was. Lets you know what a true assclown Mr. Tailgater really is.

This is a discussion forum, not a chat board. As such, many posts go unnoticed or ignored. Without instant back-and-forth, my comments on the other threads were intended to grab attention, and they have. I could discuss those hyperbole in detail, but the emotion level got too high.

This thread was intended to start anew.

If you want to call me names, please do so on the thread where it belongs. I took responsiblity for those comments above. I'm not sending flowers to calm anyones anger.

This post is intended to debate the issue intelligently. Because, to date, I have yet to hear any sound reasons to allow illegal immigration.

Erik, almost everyone has made a comment like that once or twice, you have, and I know I have.

I would agree with all those points, for the most part, and like to add a few.

The race card is played squelch any opposing point of view (like the sexist or homophobe cards). I feel about them the way Rick feels about people proclaiming their Christianity. I don't watch my walet; I look for the lack of facts in their argument.

G. Once illegals are legals they will no longer do the work we legals "won't do" because they will be us.

Furthermore, to want to keep them down to continue to exploit them is crueler then wanting to control the numbers that come in.

Well, I'm kind of undecided on the issue. I understand they are here illegally. They are a drain on the health care system and I have to pay taxes to send their kids to my schools.

However, I have to admire them. They are the hardest workers out there. When an American gets down on his luck, he goes to the subway and begs for spare change, eating food that people throw away. Illegals find the most disgusting and physically demanding jobs out there and are work their tail off for $10 a day. I have to admire anyone with that work ethic.

So, I don't think they are taking "our jobs" because even our homeless refuse to take these jobs. If an illegal can go into a place and get a job as easily as they seem to be, why can't a man on the street?

My problem with illegals comes in where because they work for so cheap, they sometimes rely on public assistance. Especially for medical and educational issues. However, do I think their children should be punished and refused care for an illegal act their parents have done? Not really. Should we let them die in a pool of blood when they shoot a nail gun through their forearm? Probably not.

So, all that typing to say I an still undecided on the issue.

Florida supplies some 90 percent of the nation's domestic fresh tomatoes during winter and 45 percent of all U.S. tomato consumption. This is as reported by the Florida Tomato Council. One of the largest and poorest farming areas in America is Immokalee, where the average tomato picker is Mexican, illegal, and earns about $7,500.00 USD per year.

McDonalds America, based in Oak Park Illinois is one of the largest consumers of Immokalee Tomatoes, as reported by their website.

Any one of you jokers ate a McDonalds tomato, or dipped your super-sized fries into McDonalds Ketchup lately?

If so, thank the illegal that made all that meal possible for you.

If you stop buying from companies that hire illegals, they'll stop coming to America. Until then, as long as you are buying products made, harvested, or otherwise by illegals you are just as wrong as they are and deserve to be thrown in jail.

Bunch of hypocrites!

Adroomi,

Please state your opinions regarding illegal immigration.

Crying about McTomatoes is a lot of information about nothing. It's impossible to put a dollar value on the positive and negative impact that illegals have on our economy.

But in regards to your singular example, I say this: McDonalds has the financial fortitude to weather any storm that a deployment of illegals would cause. They would "find a way" to harvest the tomatoes economically even without the cheap labor.

And I find it hard to believe virtually any statistic that puts an average income tag on an illegal immigrant who can not be paid by law. Companies and corporations can not pay below a minimum wage, and taxes must be paid. So any "data" can be easily skewed to make the case intended.

This, by the way, is true in BOTH directions.

One clear example is the crime statistics:

Many anti-illegal rants talk about the high level of crime committed by illegals. This may or may not be true. To understand the numbers, one would have to look not only at the crime vs population, but also at the demographics.

Illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly heavy in young men, aged 16 to 35 (thereabouts). THis group, in every class of people in our country, has a high crime rate. This would skew the numbers to make the point that illegals commit crimes at a higher rate than "legals", but it would be misleading.

Tomatoes are not a good reason to allow illegal immigration.

Yeah the guys standing out by my local Home Depot and the others over by the nursery get $10 and hour with a four hour minimum, tax free. Hell I'd do that over begging for spare change any day.

cexshun

being undecided means you have decided not to form an opinion.

form an opinion with the best information you have and be prepared to change if new information develops.

cexshun, you watch too much tv or sumpin. The illegals that come here sign up for welfare the first day in town. They work all summer for some big farm and at the end get their check for the last three months. This makes them ineligible for welfare, but they are already gone so they don't care.

I know lots of white people that work everyday for 10$ an hour or less. Maybe it's time to stop watching CNN?

They don't belong here, they do take away jobs from people here just by doing the work for less money. I have heard from others that nobody wants to pick produce for that little money? Well no kidding, now if there was no illegal allens then the people that is left to pick tomatoes would get a better wage and there would be more people wanting to pick it.

Now at to immigration I have no problem with people wanting to become citizens just as long as they do it through proper channels. As to amisty; there might be millions smoking pot they should demand amisty for that crime also,jmo.

Almost three days and I've not heard a solid reason to allow illegals to stay.

Two decided to call me names, and one chose the cheap-produce approach.

It's still early, but I am hoping that we hear from the pro-illegals. Don't simply tell me I'm wrong. Tell me why.

The silence speaks volumes.

Boredom on my part.

That and I don't agree with amnesty. All americans should earn the right to be called American, even those of us born here have a responsability. But we should give them a chance to earn it.

That said, you know where I stand on calling large masses of people derogatory names.

I hate to agree with the Devil, but you should be embarrased about #43 on the anthem post. Its almost as bad as calling an entire class of people filth.

I hate the race card, particularly since it is over used. But just because it is over used does not mean sometimes it is not without merit.

The folks that over use the race card and water down its meaning are pretty simmilar to the folks that spew the garbage that is on the other post watering down a valid argument on immigration.

I don't want either to be the poster boy for my agenda.