Gene363
  • Gene363
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4 years ago
Hospital Sues At-Will Workers for Getting Better Jobs



NEENAH, Wis. (WFRV) – ThedaCare is trying to get a court order to temporarily keep some of its employees from leaving to Ascension, after Ascension hired a ‘majority’ of its 11-member interventional radiology and cardiovascular team.

ThedaCare announced that they have filed for a temporary injunction in Outagamie County Circuit Court against Ascension Wisconsin. They are asking the Court to provide time for ThedaCare to replace most of its 11-member interventional radiology and cardiovascular team of nurses and technicians. ThedaCare says they were recruited by and have accepted jobs at Ascension Northeast Wisconsin.


Speyside2
4 years ago
The judge who issued the temporary restraining order should be dealt with as severely as is legally possible. Telling anyone they cannot change employers is unacceptable. ThedaCare should be sued by the 7 people this affects. If ThedaCare did not want to match the offers, which they were offered to, why can't someone accept a new job?
MACS
4 years ago
Shame on ya'll for questioning the benevolent overlords!!
bgz
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4 years ago
I disagree with you. Second party comes in and poaches an entire team of your people and cripples an entire piece of your business...

They should be liable for that... that's malicious with intent to cause harm... especially in the medical industry.
Gene363
  • Gene363
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4 years ago

I disagree with you. Second party comes in and poaches an entire team of your people and cripples an entire piece of your business...

They should be liable for that... that's malicious with intent to cause harm... especially in the medical industry.

bgz wrote:



What law are they breaking? The "blame" is on the original company for not paying market wages.

Right to work works in two directions, employers can fire at will and employees can leave at will.

In this case the employees are not getting paid and caught in legal limbo.
rfenst
4 years ago
Ah, the intersection of public interest law vs. medical employment law vs. contract law vs. civil procedure law vs. hospital competition!
RayR
4 years ago

I disagree with you. Second party comes in and poaches an entire team of your people and cripples an entire piece of your business...

They should be liable for that... that's malicious with intent to cause harm... especially in the medical industry.

bgz wrote:



You must believe in SLAVERY!
Stogie1020
4 years ago
10:1 these employees had a non-solicitation clause in their employment agreements and the first one to jump ship violated it by calling the other ones and saying "come with meeeeeeee!". Then they all got toether and conspired as to when they would leave so as to cause the least suspicion, and a few likely took some pads of sticky-notes or pens with them.
rfenst
4 years ago
If anyone wants to read the actual court lawsuit, memos and order, here is the link:

https://wcca.wicourts.gov/caseDetail.html?caseNo=2022CV000068&countyNo=44&index=0




Addendum: The link only takes you to the court summaries of the case filings, hearing times and such, but not the original documents, which are only open to the public for in-person viewing. I called the clerk of court and was told this. That's NOT transparent public records in this day and age...
Gene363
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4 years ago

10:1 these employees had a non-solicitation clause in their employment agreements and the first one to jump ship violated it by calling the other ones and saying "come with meeeeeeee!". Then they all got toether and conspired as to when they would leave so as to cause the least suspicion, and a few likely took some pads of sticky-notes or pens with them.

Stogie1020 wrote:



Interesting point, but the suit is against their original employer, the employees are caught in the middle.
Speyside2
4 years ago
One could also make the point if the industry standard in non competes, that could be viewed as collusion.
rfenst
4 years ago
Temporary Emergency complaints/petitions/motions rarely get heard at all on an emergency basis. I have never seen one other than in domestic abuse and family law where life or safety could be at stake. After watching Gene's link, reading a few newspaper articles and reviewing the court's actual publicly available summary reports, I do not see anything legally wrong with the TRO/Injunction because of the rapid timeline of the case (the very next court day) for the following reasons:

What about the public interest issue of making sure the public's need for highly specialized emergency stroke care is fully available on day-one? Is the new employer 100% fully ready to go on day-one? Are the neurologists and neurosurgeons and other medical specialists in the community ready to go 100% on day-one? Are the ambulance and rescue personal ready to go on day-one? Does everyone who needs to know know, etc., etc.... These, I truly believe are legitimate concerns.

I ask these questions because one of two competing hospital chains in Orlando is a center of excellence for interventional stroke management and the other **sucks royal** for it- as well as neurology and neurosurgery. I would only go to the first hospital if I or a loved one was stroking out and had any choice. If not and it wouldn't create additional risk, I would transfer hospitals ASAP.

A TRO's legal standard is basically decided upon whether: Whether everything in the lawsuit plead is assumed to be true and it appears there could be a definite emergency leading to irrevocable harm. It does **not*** take actual proof of facts or even testimony to the true facts. Once a TRO is granted, the court **must** have a quick, later, factual hearing with both sides present and with both sides having the opportunity to be equally prepared. Evidence and arguments are presented (documents, testimony, statutes and case law) so the judge can fairly and formally decide whether the TRO should be made permanent, extended only for a definite period of time (short or long) or lifted completely (dissolved)(reversed).

The court papers were filed on Thursday. The emergency hearing was the next day. The emergency order only lasts through today's all encompassing emergency morning court hearing scheduled for today, which could already have been completed this very morning. This hearing and its timing would be any judge's very first priority under the law right now to the exclusion of any other allegedly important matters (even if a trial was a trial scheduled for today that was set five years ago for that day). Thedacare probably had to post a large bond as required by most TRO's.

I believe the employees **will be legally required to timely be paid** by Thedacare. More important, I hope as many of them worked or were on call just for this weekend at Thedacare- for the public good.

I also believe that Thedacare is WRONG. This could have all been prevented with employment contracts and agreed upon non-competes on how close (distance) the employees could work for usually one to three years after voluntarily leaving (as opposed to being fired).

More thoughts to come...
Gene363
  • Gene363
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4 years ago

Temporary Emergency complaints/petitions/motions rarely get heard at all on an emergency basis. I have never seen one other than in domestic abuse and family law where life or safety could be at stake. After watching Gene's link, reading a few newspaper articles and reviewing the court's actual publicly available summary reports, I do not see anything legally wrong with the TRO/Injunction because of the rapid timeline of the case (the very next court day) for the following reasons:

What about the public interest issue of making sure the public's need for highly specialized emergency stroke care is fully available on day-one? Is the new employer 100% fully ready to go on day-one? Are the neurologists and neurosurgeons and other medical specialists in the community ready to go 100% on day-one? Are the ambulance and rescue personal ready to go on day-one? Does everyone who needs to know know, etc., etc.... These, I truly believe are legitimate concerns.

I ask these questions because one of two competing hospital chains in Orlando is a center of excellence for interventional stroke management and the other **sucks royal** for it- as well as neurology and neurosurgery. I would only go to the first hospital if I or a loved one was stroking out and had any choice. If not and it wouldn't create additional risk, I would transfer hospitals ASAP.

A TRO's legal standard is basically decided upon whether: Whether everything in the lawsuit plead is assumed to be true and it appears there could be a definite emergency leading to irrevocable harm. It does **not*** take actual proof of facts or even testimony to the true facts. Once a TRO is granted, the court **must** have a quick, later, factual hearing with both sides present and with both sides having the opportunity to be equally prepared. Evidence and arguments are presented (documents, testimony, statutes and case law) so the judge can fairly and formally decide whether the TRO should be made permanent, extended only for a definite period of time (short or long) or lifted completely (dissolved)(reversed).

The court papers were filed on Thursday. The emergency hearing was the next day. The emergency order only lasts through today's all encompassing emergency morning court hearing scheduled for today, which could already have been completed this very morning. This hearing and its timing would be any judge's very first priority under the law right now to the exclusion of any other allegedly important matters (even if a trial was a trial scheduled for today that was set five years ago for that day). Thedacare probably had to post a large bond as required by most TRO's.

I believe the employees **will be legally required to timely be paid** by Thedacare. More important, I hope as many of them worked or were on call just for this weekend at Thedacare- for the public good.

I also believe that Thedacare is WRONG. This could have all been prevented with employment contracts and agreed upon non-competes on how close (distance) the employees could work for usually one to three years after voluntarily leaving (as opposed to being fired).

More thoughts to come...

rfenst wrote:



The "public" does not own the employees and is not entitled to the fruits of their labor.

danmdevries
4 years ago
I could see this happening by me. We're a comprehensive stroke center, the only one in the area, and the team is small and highly specialized. They get paid the same as any other nurse or rad tech in the hospital.

The other hospital system in the area is building a new facility and they feed us a lot of stroke patients from their many hospitals across Northern Indiana. They're missing out on a lot of money for these high stakes cases that are well-reimbursed by CMS. They'd be wise to recruit the team from us with better salaries, and establish their own program.

Sure there's going to be a loss of service in the community in the transitional period. But we're dealing with that now, all the cardiac cath lab staff in East Chicago left to do contract work, so that department has been closed for several months. They ship all their heart attacks to us, and our cath lab staff is ready to bail because they're overworked often doing more than 24 hours a "day". But again, not paid any more than I am. Maybe even less because the retention contract packages are only available to bedside staff.

If I were forced by court order to stay when I'd already announced my intent to quit, I would not maintain myself as employable. I'd force them to fire me and then go do what I was going to do.
Speyside2
4 years ago
Robert ThedCare argument that the same care is over an hour away doesn't fly. Ascension is about 14 minutes away. So I think your point of what is day 1 of when Ascension is ready to go is all that serves the public interest.
Speyside2
4 years ago
No, there is a difference Thedacare offers 24 stroke service Ascension does not.
HockeyDad
4 years ago

I disagree with you. Second party comes in and poaches an entire team of your people and cripples an entire piece of your business...

They should be liable for that... that's malicious with intent to cause harm... especially in the medical industry.

bgz wrote:



Your business sucks if it can be franked that easy.
HockeyDad
4 years ago

The "public" does not own the employees and is not entitled to the fruits of their labor.

Gene363 wrote:



Well it kinda seems like they do own them for the moment! Slavery evolved.
Sunoverbeach
4 years ago
"Where are you taking me?" Asked the patient. The doctor replied, "To the morgue." The patient protested, "But I'm not dead yet." "And we're not there yet," replied the doc
Speyside2
4 years ago
When my doctor told me I needed an oblation I told him I wanted a second opinion. He said you're ugly too.
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