For Stogie, rfenst, Frank or another other Jewish person who is willing to share their thoughts.

Which political party in Israel do you most idenify?

How do you feel about a two-state solution?

How have your feelings about a two-state solution evolved over the years?

Does the last three weeks have you feeling differently than you did a month ago?

Asking out of curiosity and an opportunity to learn from your persepctives.

Thanks.

Russ, these are reasonable questions to ask of your BODR (brothers of a different religion?) and I would like to get my thoughts written up, if only to discover the inconsistencies and contradictions that have swirled around in my head for a few decades...

but it would take a very long time. I'd be editing and rewording for hours, but I'll take a shot at a couple of aspects, cuz, y'know, it's what I do.

I've always been for a two state solution, that was the plan of most of the world just a few years before I was born.
The longer answer involves opinions as to why the surrounding Arab states wouldn't give an inch of sand to the proposed state of Palestine/undesirables back then, and why every single offer to make it happen has been unconditionally refused...at some point the world might want to believe that the Palestinians/Arabs are really seeking a one state solution, perhaps explaining why Israel can not be found on Hamas maps of the middle east. I could expound on the history of this forever, but not here, not now.

If you have your foot on the throat of someone who wanted you and your family dead, and he refuses to agree to try to work it out, you might be making a suicidal gesture by removing your foot.
Rational people would back you. Rational people used to back this action.

But if this went on for decades, and you arrogantly refused to invest a shekel in any kind of Public Relations, if you arrogantly dismissed critics with a wave of the hand and said approval is not the goal, survival is, and any steps necessary to make "Never Again" more than a slogan is the only goal, and everyone else can go frank themselves...well then you basically threw away all of the World's sympathy that had been so hard to earn...like from the slaughter at the Olympics in Germany, or tossing a Jew in a wheelchair off of a cruise ship, or not entering the fray despite direct missile attacks when President Cheney (let's be real) asked you to stay out of Iraq...or when you kept the land taken in wars in which you were attacked??? WTF!!! Or gave some land back in Land for Peace deals...

And no, I don't feel like I have changed my feelings recently, other than to have my human feelings of disgust, pity, sorrow, outrage et al at the plight of what has and what will inevitably happen to residents of Gaza. Despite being Jewish, I have never desired that melted glass parking lot I read that others would like to see. The carnage is a horror that I can't grasp others compartmentalizing.

Hamas has no regard for those lives, and will continue to gleefully sacrifice them, if only as the price of that Public Relations that Israel would not pay.

I have to stop. At least for now.

I advocated the glass parking lot. As you know I was in Iraq. I've seen horrors there and in the jails. Men stabbing each other with manufactured weapons, using trays to smash each other in the face.

Dead body stuffed under a bunk. You become numb to it because you compartmentalize. We make jokes right then and there... because it's easier. Sleep like a baby that way.

Dwell on it and give yourself a heart attack in your 50's, when you're otherwise in really good shape. 😰

Having been in the region, it's really as simple as one side wants peace and the other wants all Jews dead. Ask yourself two questions:

If Israel laid down their arms and didn't fight any more, what would happen? Answer: The Arabs would wipe them out. Quickly.

If the Arabs laid down their arms and didn't fight any more, what would happen? Answer: There would be peace.

I'm not Jewish. Obviously. But neither am I blind or dumb.

I'm not sure I disagree.
This is very difficult.

also Shawn, the parking lot thing has been said a number of times over the years.
I did not have you or anyone else specifically in mind.

Frankie emerges...

I have missed frank...the C-Bid arbitrator in good faith...
He always rules fairly...

I did not take it personally. Hamas and Hezbollah are extremists. Can't reason with them. Like rabid dogs, they have to be eliminated. It's not the dog's fault... it was infected. These people's minds are infected from the time they are born.

Edit: The right approach is to be kind as a default, of course... but we have to be absolutely ruthless when it's needed. Many people don't have the stomach for that part.

10 Facts to Know About War and Judaism


Chabad.org
War in Judaism is a complex issue. Some wars were Divinely ordained, for reasons known to G‑d alone. Others were necessary for self-defense or other purposes. The ultimate goal, however, is for the world to be at peace, as Isaiah prophesied: “He [the Messiah] shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.”

1. Some Biblical-Era Wars Were Divinely Ordained
During the conquest of Canaan, the Jewish nation was commanded to eliminate the tribes that inhabited the land, in order to prevent their evil ways from spreading. According to the Jerusalem Talmud, these nations were given the opportunity to repent and accept upon themselves the Seven Noahide Laws. Only if they refused to accept this moral code and instead remained steadfast in their sinful ways was the command to be carried out.

G‑d also commanded us to battle Amalek, the nation that attacked the people of Israel on their way out of Egypt: “Remember what Amalek did to you on the way, when you went out of Egypt . . . you shall obliterate the remembrance of Amalek from beneath the heavens. You shall not forget!”

This category of war is known as ... a Divinely ordained war.

2. Peace Must Be Proposed First
A telling directive as to how warfare should be carried out is found in Deuteronomy: “When you approach a city to wage war against it, you shall propose peace to it.” There is discussion amongst the rabbis as to whether this condition applies to Divinely ordained warfare ... or only to a discretionary war ... A discretionary war is one that is embarked upon by a king of Israel to secure or expand the borders of Israel. In order to embark on such a war, the king must obtain authorization from the Sanhedrin, the Jewish High Court5. According to Maimonides, this command applies to Divinely ordained wars as well.

3. Weapons Are Not Ornaments
On [the Sabbath] it is forbidden to carry an object four cubits in a public domain. Clothing or jewelry, which a person wears, is not considered to be in violation of this law, since you are not carrying your clothing. The Mishnah states that it is forbidden to go out wearing a sword or another weapon. Rabbi Eliezer objects, saying: “For him it is an ornament” (i.e., it should be permitted just as jewelry is). The rabbis respond: “They [weapons] are only a discredit [to those who wear them], as the verse states:‘And they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks . . .’”8 Ultimately, in the days of [the Messiah], weapons will be transformed into tools that help mankind. Weapons represent a state of the world that we don't want to be in, and wearing them is no badge of honor, no symbol of beauty.

4. The Camp Must Be Holy
During war, special emphasis is placed on maintaining the purity and sanctity of the camp. As the verse tells us: “For the L‑rd, your G‑d, goes along in the midst of your camp, to rescue you and to deliver your enemies before you. [Therefore,] your camp shall be holy, so that He should not see anything unseemly among you, and turn away from you.” The Torah provides practical examples as to how the camp should be kept clean and pure. For instance, the troops were to carry a tool with which to dig and cover their waste after relieving themselves. Additionally, the Torah strongly emphasizes the importance of a superior level of morality. The verse states: “When you go forth against your enemies and are in camp, then you shall keep yourself from every evil thing.” The Midrash interprets this to refer to various forms of depraved behavior, which the army was to avoid.

5. Newlyweds and Others Would Stay Home
Before battle, a kohen and an officer would address the troops, giving inspiration and also the opportunity for some soldiers to withdraw from battle. The kohen would proclaim: “Hear, O Israel, today you are approaching the battle against your enemies. Let your hearts not be faint; you shall not be afraid, and you shall not be alarmed, and you shall not be terrified because of them.” The officer would continue: “What man is there who has built a new house and has not inaugurated it? And what man is there who has planted a vineyard, and has not [yet] redeemed it? And what man is there who has betrothed a woman and has not [yet] married her? Let him go and return to his house, lest he die in battle . . .”

The officer would also give an opportunity for those who may have been fainthearted to return home, lest their lack of morale affect their fellow soldiers. Rashi here, quoting the Talmud,14 points out that this faintheartedness could also refer to one whose sins made him afraid, for he felt that he was unworthy and would therefore not survive the battle.

6. King David’s Warring Prevented Him From Building the Temple
G‑d tells King David: “You have shed much blood, and you have waged great wars; you shall not build a house in My name, because you have shed much blood to the ground before Me.” Although King David was not necessarily wrong for waging all those battles, the Temple was to be a place of peace. As such, it was to be built by King David’s son Solomon, a man more suited to the peaceful nature of the Temple.

7. During a Siege, a Side of the City Must Be Left Open
An interesting and enigmatic condition to siege warfare is found in Maimonides’ Mishneh Torah: “When a siege is placed around a city to conquer it, it should not be surrounded on all four sides, only on three. A place should be left for the inhabitants to flee and for all those who desire to escape with their lives, as it is written: ‘They besieged Midian as G‑d commanded Moses.’ According to tradition, He commanded them to array the siege as described.” Again, there is discussion as to whether this law applies to both categories of war, or if it would apply only in a case of a discretionary war.

8. One Life Is No More Valuable Than Another
A famous case is cited in the Jerusalem Talmud regarding a group of Jews who are ambushed by non-Jews. The gentiles give them an ultimatum: either hand over a single Jew to be killed, or the entire group will be killed. The law is that no single Jew may be handed over; the entire group must give up their lives.18 The Lubavitcher Rebbe explains the rationale behind this law: Since a Jew’s soul is an actual part of the infinite G‑d, two souls are no more an expression of G‑d than one soul. We humans cannot be the arbiters of justice, to decide who shall live and who shall perish. Even at a time of war it must be remembered that human life is precious, and all must be done to avoid unnecessary death.

9. We Are at War With Our Evil Inclination
We as Jews are fighting a constant battle against our evil inclination (yetzer hara). In fact, our very purpose in this physical and mundane world is to ultimately triumph in this principal battle. This is achieved through the steadfast observance of Torah and mitzvahs. Our ultimate reward for persevering in this battle is the final redemption, a time where there will be no battles, a time when the world will finally be at peace.

10. We Are at War With War Itself
Rabbi Sholom DovBer, the fifth Rebbe of Chabad-Lubavitch, devoted an entire treatise to the war we must each wage against interpersonal divisiveness. Rather than choose a passage that commands love of one’s fellow or the like, he begins with a passage commanding a genocidal war against the Midianite nation:

The L‑rd spoke to Moses saying, “Wage the vengeance of the Israelites against the Midianites . . .” So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “. . . Carry out the vengeance of G‑d against Midian.”

Midian, Rabbi Sholom DovBer tells us, is a conjugate of the Hebrew word madon, meaning “feud or quarrel.” In a direct inversion of their literal meaning, these passages are to be read as commanding a genocidal war against quarrelsomeness, a campaign to erase the egotistical divisiveness that is rooted in our own souls. Moses terms this war “the vengeance of G‑d,” which implies that quarrelsomeness is not merely a social ill, but a sin against G‑d. In other words, the real war we need to wage is the war against war itself.




https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4112580/jewish/10-Facts-to-Know-About-War-and-Judaism.htm 

I'm a gentile but that's an interesting article Robert.

War is an atrocity in itself, there is no way around that, so yes "war we need to wage is the war against war itself". Surely the ancient Israelites committed wholesale atrocities against their enemies and civilians as revenge against evils done to them.

This dude thinks that Israel today needs to do the same. I've heard 2 wrongs don't make a right and prescribing genocide as the cure is not a just war.

."We still have not revenged in a biblical way…we did not burn Gaza to ashes immediately.
Create a tremendous humanity crisis. Level the entire area.
Do not leave a stone upon stone in Gaza. Gaza needs to turn to Dresden. Annihilate Gaza now!"
- Moshe Feiglin

https://twitter.com/Anna_AnninaEl/status/1717460569601475007 

I don't wanna drift from 8's OP but you don't know of this dude you just quoted, do you Ray?

8, thanks for being genuinely curious.

What is often forgotten is that when the League of Nations originally split the ottoman empire (and specifically created the area that is now Israel and Jordan), they allocated over 60% of the land to the resident Arabs. This area became Jordan. The fact that the resident Arabs refused to take the land, fought a war and lost, and then refused to leave has been continually made worse by the special designation of these people by the U.N. as a newly created and unique in history class of refugees who pass their refugee status down to their descendants. It's the only class of refugees that grows over time instead of diminishing.

In terms of a two state solution, I am all in favor of it. But the land should be in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or Egypt, as these are the countries that told the now-"refugees" to flee the new state of Israel in '48 while they were going to erase Israel the first time. Their debt to the world for that act, and failure, should be absorption of the "refugees."

He's a politician Frank. You know something else?

"DESTROY, ANNIHILATE, KILL" - Israeli lawmaker Moshe Feiglin calls for genocide on national TV

https://x.com/UncapturedNews/status/1714672432290648431?s=20 

Watch this Hamas captive talk about his directives, goals, etc...

The only "two state" solution for those like him is 'liquid or gas', but he should not be allowed to remain solid.

How about just because God gave us that land in the Torah?

While I agree entirely, I try not to feed into the Islamic holy war prophecy...

They want to argue current geopolitical stabbed? I, let's look at current geopolitical history.

They antisemetic hatred and violence in Israel existed long before the state of Israel was institued. The conclusion I draw from this is that the problem is not the existence of Israel, like Hamas opines. But, instead regional, psuedo-tribal conflicts tthat has conflicts going on for centuries- if not longer.

Sure, but being enlightened folks, we should probably try to avoid saying "my clan is bigger/better/stronger than your clan" in current debates, even if it's true.

I think the legitimacy of the argument (in the eyes of others) degrades when you start arguing about who's clan has a better God, more power, etc...

Legal entities legally created Israel. Israel legally acquired additional land via unprovoked warfare. Israel is justified in defeating its military adversaries when attacked by them.

This is just the reasoning I think need be applied on the world stage. Sure there are many other factors, but most of those won't further the cause IMO.