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Nick Berg Beheading
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THL Offline
#51 Posted: Fri, May 14 2004, 1:34 PM EST
Joined: 10-22-2002
Posts: 3,044
I watched. These are medieval people and they will only stop when they are dead, or everyone else is.


And their public relations advisor is way overpaid.
cayman2b Offline
#52 Posted: Fri, May 14 2004, 2:02 PM EST
Joined: 05-19-2000
Posts: 1,734
RDC-

cayman2b
hotmail

thanx
ksbodman Offline
#53 Posted: Fri, May 14 2004, 3:37 PM EST
Joined: 07-05-2006
Posts: 57
MDavis,

I agree 100% with the first paragraph of your post. However, I have to take issue with the second graph.

Why are Americans so SHOCKED by the Abu Graib photographs that depict the same scenes played out in fraternity/sorority houses every day?

I don't think the vast majority of us are TRULY all that shocked. The media have jumped on the story because it contains lurid sexual details that generate ratings.

What happened to Nick Berg is absolutely monstrous and shouldn't be mentioned in the same story as Abu Graib.

We're esentially comparing "pranks" in which nobody is hurt to the most horrific, anamalistic murder most of us (hopefully) have ever witnessed.

We further dishonor Nick Berg by bringing him into the Abu Graib furor.
MACS Offline
#54 Posted: Fri, May 14 2004, 3:44 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,817
It sickened me. F*** those people. F*** every last one of them. We should leave Iraq right now. And as soon as we are out... INCOMING!! I ain't talkin' tomahawks either. I'm talking Hiroshima and Nagasaki on a grander scale.

For those of you who think my reaction is over the top, compare the two... Japan attacked a Naval Base at Pearl Harbor and then fought us straight up, military to military and we nuked the crap outa them... these cowards killed CIVILIANS and then just beheaded another one with a friggin' knife!

They need to be taught a lesson in nuclear physics.

I'm sorry, but I am outraged.
coda Offline
#55 Posted: Fri, May 14 2004, 5:08 PM EST
Joined: 07-27-2003
Posts: 623
RDC -

Twas my mistake on my email address. Please try again,

"eff" "jay" "doubleyew" at hiwaay dot net

Thanks.


Slimboli Offline
#56 Posted: Fri, May 14 2004, 5:16 PM EST
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Any one hear the lastest on Nick Berg? Of course, Ascroft says there is no link ...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/11/iraq/main616842.shtml

CBS News National Security Correspondent David Martin reports U.S. officials said the FBI questioned Berg, a 26-year-old American civilian who was beheaded in Iraq, in 2002 after a computer password Berg used in college turned up in the possession of Zacarias Moussaoui, the al Qaeda operative arrested shortly before Sept. 11 for his suspicious activity at a flight school in Minnesota.

Moussaoui is now in federal custody and awaiting trial on conspiracy charges stemming from the Sept. 11 attacks.

The 2002 investigation determined that an e-mail address once used by Berg apparently was obtained by the Moussaoui acquaintances while Berg was briefly an engineering student at the University of Oklahoma in 1999.

I don't know how much of this is true ... but makes one really wonder what he was doing there in the first place.
woodbutchr Offline
#57 Posted: Fri, May 14 2004, 6:59 PM EST
Joined: 11-17-2001
Posts: 115
RDC, can you do one more please. woodbutchr at yahoo dot com
lukin Offline
#58 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 4:52 AM EST
Joined: 03-31-2004
Posts: 2,205
This whole thing is getting weird. The fact that this guy was in custody with the Iraqi police, that the FBI visited him three times in jail, the fact that he has a link to 9/11 terrorists. No one deserves to die like this, but something strange is going on with this dude. More than anyone is letting on. Maybe he is CIA? Maybe a double agent?
Slimboli Offline
#59 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 6:03 AM EST
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Whomever he was, and just what role he played in all this ... the CIA did a voice analyasis on the guy who did the beheading ...

... and they are almost positive that it is Osama bin Laden's closest associate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi ... and the second most wanted person ...

I think that he was beheaded for reasons other than just revenge for the stuff some of our military did to those prisoners ... and they used that as an opportunity to use that as a way to bring on more turmoil.
CWFoster Offline
#60 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 6:31 AM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
Rich, doittome1959(at)aol.com
CWFoster Offline
#61 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 6:59 AM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
OK, here's MY two cents worth!
A local newspaper said Bush apologized for the atrocities, and had a poll URL to express whether the readers thought we SHOULD apologize to the Arab word for these heinous acts. I think we owe them an apology, and it will be forthcoming as soon as a few preconditions are met.
1) the "Arab World" (hereafter referred to as "the ragheads") apologize for the bombing of the Pan Am Flight over Lockerbie Scotland, and Libya turns the perpetrators over to the American, or British authorities.
2)The ragheads apologize for the Marine Barracks bombing in the eighties, and for all the lesser bombings they've done to commemorate the event on it's anniversary every year since.
3)the ragheads apologize for the missle strike against the USS Stark in 1988.
4)the ragheads apologize for the laying the minefield the USS Samuel B. Roberts wandered into in 1988.
5)the ragheads apologize for the First WTC bombing in 1993.
4)the ragheads cease attempting to totally destroy the state of Israel, and negotiate in good faith for a change.
5)the ragheads apologize for the bombing of two US embasies in Southern Africa in 1998.
6)the ragheads apologize for the bombing of the Khobar Towers housing block in Saudi Arabia.
7)the ragheads apologize for the bombing of the USS Cole in 2000.
8)the ragheads apologize for killing 2400+ of our innocent citizens on September 11th 2001, and make reparations to the families of those victims, and the victims of atrocities I've already mentioned, and those I haven't gotten to yet! And reparations to the US and international businesses that lost significant assets in that attack!
9)the ragheads stop paying rewards to the families of suicide bombers, and holding them up as heros.
10)the ragheads stop allowing groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad to have offices in their cities, as though they were legitimate organizations. Further to root these groups out and destroy them, so as to break the cycle of hatred.
11)the ragheads should display the same outrage they've shown at the prison atrocities to the beheading of Daniel Pearl (what abuses was HE killed in revenge for?) and the Nick Berg beheading.
12)the ragheads should make restitution for the victims of extremeist terrorism in Israel for the past sixty years, and make efforts to re-educate their people on the senselessness of the violence, and conduct the same kind of sensitivity training US troops will probably be subject to now!

After all these things are done, the playing field will be in a position that an apology on our part would be appropriate!

like I said....my .02 worth!
CWFoster Offline
#62 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 7:01 AM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
BTW, WHEN will the idiots among us ever learn that IF they are going to insist on being ignorant, they NOT capture the moment on film and videotape!
CWFoster Offline
#63 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 7:04 AM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
I just saw the Berg video. I'm pleased to announce that if you don't hear from me for awhile, I will probably be making an appearance (with a couple hundred friends all dressed in coffee-stains) at a sandbox near you (if you are somewhere where the temperature is somewhat over temparate).
MACS Offline
#64 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 7:28 AM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,817
I leave soon myself. See ya there C-dub!
CWFoster Offline
#65 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 10:10 AM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
S--TS ON! time ta kick ass and take names!

oh, the hell with the names!
MDavis Offline
#66 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 2:31 PM EST
Joined: 11-11-2003
Posts: 94
scottbodman

I agree that the treatment of a few Iraqis and the murder of Mr. Berg shouldn't be seen as equal. What was done to the Iraqis in our custody was wrong but hardly the same as brutally and sadistically killing someone.

But I think most Americans are upset (shocked may be to strong) by the treatment of Iraqi prisoners. It goes against our sense of fair play. Our sense that we are better than that. That everyone, even the worst amoung us, deserves fair and decent treatment.

I realize that there are also those amoung us who say to hell with fair and decent treatment. They get what they get. Eye for an eye only makes us more like them.

grond Offline
#67 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 3:55 PM EST
Joined: 06-07-2003
Posts: 738
I'm just amazed that the actions of 10 - 15 demented American GI "youth" have taken such precedence over the Nick Berg issue. 15 of 150,000 troops misbehave, are discovered, are held accountable, will be court martialed and disciplined appropriately. There is no cover up... there is no attempt to sweep it under the rug and yet many members of Congress (mostly Democrats) express outrage at of Commander in Chief.

Of course, when they do comment on the Nick Berg situation, it will be (like Mr. Berg's father) to blame President Bush for the whole thing. After all, it's Mr. Bush's war right??? He sent over our troops without any approval from anybody... right?? Ohhhhh... wait a minute... Congress gave overwhelming support for him to take this action. Wait a minute!! Didn't a guy named Kerry even support these actions?? I seem to remember Kerry even saying in his last senatorial campaign something to this effect, "If you don't think Saddam Hussein is a threat and needs to be stopped, then don't vote for John Kerry."

I'm saddened to see that political diatribe rules the day and we are missing the "real" positive happenings which occur daily in Iraq.
Robby Offline
#68 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 4:27 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
MDavis, let me give you a hypothetical scenario, suppose the people in custody, who were by the way terrorists, insurgents, etc… Not “army regulars” suppose they were being subjected to some psychological warfare under the guise of humiliation, sleep depravation, etc… And suppose that you’re there “caring” for them. You with me? Now suppose your buddies, people you knew personally were killed by these terrorists, hiding from churches and the like, sniping, hiding their faces, planting roadside bombs, etc… We know for a fact that these men were involved in this type of activity. Are you still with me? Now suppose that by degrading these “men”, and diminishing their capacity to resist interrogation, that you gain information with respect to who is committing the “real” atrocities, who is conducting the bombings, who is running around cutting people’s heads off? What then? Suppose with this information, you could potentially stop future attacks on your fellow soldiers? End hostilities sooner? Return peace and stability to that war torn nation? Do you maintain that there is simply no possible scenario where you could agree with what was done?

Let’s take it a step further, suppose we had people in custody before 9/11 who had knowledge of the plans. Would you still feel so strongly that we should not parade them around naked in front of each other and put underwear on their heads? To get information to prevent the death of innocent thousands of civilians? I’m curious given the aforementioned VERY LIKELY set of circumstances. After all, these people weren’t suspected or alleged bad guys, they ARE bad guys. Keep in mind also that while you may be a good and decent person who means no harm to others, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, there are people in this world who wake up every day and think of ways to kill you and me and our families. That is their number one goal. And if a couple of towel headed, gun wheedling, IED making, American hating, face hiding, camel jockeying, throat cutting, WMD hiding, mass murdering, plane crashing, freedom hating, Muslim terrorists, card carrying Al-Queda members have to be “humiliated” to save ONE AMERICAN LIFE, then I say, please LET ME BE FIRST IN LINE TO CHECK HIS PROSTRATE!!!
MDavis Offline
#69 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 5:37 PM EST
Joined: 11-11-2003
Posts: 94
Robby,

Sounds like you've become what you hate. Mistreatment of today's terrorist leads to mistreatment of tomorrows cabdriver, shop keeper etc.

I guess my response is - if this treatment was effective in stopping the insurgents, why are we still filling military hospitals with wounded? By all accounts these interrogation techniques have been going on for quite some time. Secondly, inflaming the Iraqi population makes our troops safer, how? It is dangerous enough walking street patrols without having some brother-in-law or uncle or father looking for a little pay back.

The expert on this issue, Senator McCain, agrees. Mistreatment of prisoners is wrong, for whatever reason.
Robby Offline
#70 Posted: Sat, May 15 2004, 5:51 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Were we "mistreating" the Japanese when we dropped the A-bomb on them?

And correct me if I’m wrong PLEASE! But according to the Geneva convention, if they’re not in uniform, they can be considered spies? Yes? And again according to the Geneva convention, if they are “spies” we can hang them? Or shoot them? Or whatever? So you’d be ok with that, right? Because they’re not in uniform (read the Geneva convention). Yes, then you’re right, we shouldn’t pile them up naked and put them in dog collars, we should execute them as enemy spies. I agree wholeheartedly, we SHOULD follow the rules, ALL OF THE RULES! Welcome aboard!

ksbodman Offline
#71 Posted: Sun, May 16 2004, 3:07 AM EST
Joined: 07-05-2006
Posts: 57
Robby,

I agree.

BTW, I couldn't find anything about panties anywhere in the Geneva Convention. ;)
JonR Offline
#72 Posted: Sun, May 16 2004, 10:01 AM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
Yo Scott: The geneva concoction states you may kill your enemy but not in such a way that would cause his panties to bunch-up. JonR
ksbodman Offline
#73 Posted: Sun, May 16 2004, 11:59 AM EST
Joined: 07-05-2006
Posts: 57
Does it say that you have to kill your enemy in such a way that the American media elitists don't get THEIR panties in a bunch?
MDavis Offline
#74 Posted: Sun, May 16 2004, 1:31 PM EST
Joined: 11-11-2003
Posts: 94
Robby

Did we "mistreat" the Japanese. You bet. Getting nuked is the ultimate "mistreatment". Was America right to use the "bomb"? You bet. By all accounts it was going to cost us hundreds of thousands of lives to invade the Japanese islands. Not sure I understand the analogy.

Robby Offline
#75 Posted: Sun, May 16 2004, 4:44 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Ok, how many then? How many lives constitutes "justifiable mistreatment" Just a moment ago, you said it was wrong period... Now that position is moderating? So we've established that if we can save American lives by allowing some carnage and or "mistreatment" of "our enemy", then it is in fact "justifiable", so where do you draw the line? Hundreds of thousands? Tens of thousands? Thousands? Hundreds? How much are those American lives worth to you? As I stated, they are priceless in comparison to parading someone around with underwear on their head, or stacking them naked. I'll restate my claim that I will volunteer to be prostrate checker in chief if it helps save ONE American soldier... I can’t make it any clearer than that.
Robby Offline
#76 Posted: Sun, May 16 2004, 4:46 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
And oh, by the way, P.S., let's assume that the ONE hypothetical life that would be saved is your child...
Robby Offline
#77 Posted: Sun, May 16 2004, 4:47 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Now how do you feel about it? After careful introspective contemplation please... No knee jerk reactions will be accepted.
Schmitty22 Offline
#78 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 2:54 AM EST
Joined: 01-27-2003
Posts: 4,892
would .like to see the unedited video. Can someone email the link to download or route to me?

smitty0128forums-cigars at yahoo.com
RDC Offline
#79 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 4:22 AM EST
Joined: 01-21-2000
Posts: 5,874
Sent and resent to the latest group. I dont have access to the file on weekends, sorry for the dealy.
Schmitty22 Offline
#80 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 5:37 AM EST
Joined: 01-27-2003
Posts: 4,892
WOW!
Buckwheat Offline
#81 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 6:32 AM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
I have not seen the video nor do I really desire to see the video. I think that it is a lie of the Islamic extremists to claim that the killing of Nick Berg was in retaliation for the humiliation of prisoners in Iraq. The people that killed Nick Berg should be hunted down and brought to justice. They are animals.

I will say something to those who want to nuke Iraq. Why do you think that the killing of thousands of people (innocent or guilty) would help our troops? Just because their side is willing to commit outrageous acts of barbarism doesn’t mean that we should. Do we really want to get into an “eye for an eye” type of conflict? Just look at what this type of policy has gotten Israel.

I think that this quote best says how I feel:

"We cannot insure success, but we can deserve it".

John Adams writing to his wife about the war with England on New Year's Day in 1776 and borrowing a line from the play Cato by Joseph Addison.
Charlie Offline
#82 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 7:57 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Do not know exactly what is considered uniforms for Terrorist, anything from New York Mets jerseys to Polo tee shirts to rejected war surplus uniforms of sort!
Know one thing the Geneva convention, does say out of uniform, spies............end of game!

Charlie
Buckwheat Offline
#83 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 11:07 AM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
I feel that I also have to say something about everyone passing this video around. I'd be pretty pissed at everyone gawking at the murder of my son on the net. This isn't some movie, it is a life. I know that everyone here has the best of intentions, but I don’t think that it is necessary for us to “actually view” this tragedy. This isn’t about blood and guts, it is about a senseless murder of an innocent civilian by a bunch of idiots (my actual language was self edited).
Cavallo Offline
#84 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 11:22 AM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
there's one thing i have to say about viewing the video. there are things that images can do that "hearing about it" cannot, and that is to make an impression INDELIABLE in one's mind. you can judge that to be a good or bad thing.

but i tell you, if it had been me? i would want every adult in the world to view that video and NEVER FORGET WHY WE ARE FIGHTING THIS WAR.
mydsooner Offline
#85 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 11:28 AM EST
Joined: 12-29-2003
Posts: 3,245
I refuse to watch it. I dont need to watch it to realize what these people are about.
MDavis Offline
#86 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 5:25 PM EST
Joined: 11-11-2003
Posts: 94
Robby,

Not taking the bait. If you don't see the difference between ending WWII and mistreating prisoners, wellllllllll, I understand. Maybe we should move on to something else.

If they agree to let you be the prostate (not prostrate) checker in chief, will it be glove on or glove off? If it's glove off, be sure to use your left hand. It's considered bad form to use your right hand for such things in that part of the world.

MDavis Offline
#87 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 5:49 PM EST
Joined: 11-11-2003
Posts: 94
Robby,

As to your second and third questions - you're a butt wipe. My son served eight years in the Army as a combat medic and military policeman. He did a year in Somolia with the 10th Mountain Division as part of the US Rapid Reaction Force protecting UN peacekeepers. He saw some type of action almost every day up to and including taking an RPG that blew him 20 feet in the air receiving shrapnel wounds. He was 19 years old. He did 10 months in Bosnia where he routinely came under sniper fire. He did two tours in Korea. One tour was as the shift leader at a military prison. By the way, he disagrees with you. Mistreatment of prisoners is always wrong.

I stayed glued to the TV and newspapers while he was in Somalia and Bosnia. I and my wife got up every day hoping we wouldn't hear from the Army. You f**king dweeb, presuming to lecture me about how precious our soldiers lives are.
Cavallo Offline
#88 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 8:01 PM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
mydsooner: i can totally understand that, too. that's how i felt when i first had the chance to view it. later on, i decided that i would view it. i couldn't open the file, though, so i decided that it's for the best after all.

there are, however, a few people in my circle of friends whom i'd like to sit down and MAKE them watch it in the hopes that they might finally get a dose of reality to send them out of their "moral ambiguity."
Cavallo Offline
#89 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 8:09 PM EST
Joined: 01-05-2004
Posts: 2,796
i have to say one thing about the prisoner abuses -- the army itself is NOT PROUD of these dipheads. it's not just about a handful of chuckles and naked pee-pees, either. it's about the kind of TORTURE and RAPE that are part and parcels of terrorist tactics.

it is, as the commander and chief has said, appalling. it should have never happened, and i hope the assclowns who did it are booted from the military -- they dishonored themselves and their uniform in these actions -- even if it WAS just some photos of naked iraqis. but it wasn't just that, and i've not spoken to a single person in the military, officer or enlisted, who sees these jagoffs as anything but scumbags who don't deserve to wear the same uniform.

just my tuppence on that matter.
Cigarick Offline
#90 Posted: Mon, May 17 2004, 8:27 PM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Amazed that the press has all but dropped any mention of Nick Berg's butchering, yet continues to blast the headlines with "prison atrocities."

Boo-hoo. How else are we supposed to get information out of prisoners? Somehow I don't think a stern warning and turning off the cable TV at 8PM instead of 10PM is going to do it.

Besides, we've seen how they treat their prisoners, and we treat our prisoners a lot better than they treat their own women.

The whole country is going to collapse into civil war the minute we leave anyway, so I say we leave now and stop wasting money in Iraq when we should be spending it on tracking down and killing Osama and every single one of his terrorist scrotes.
ksbodman Offline
#91 Posted: Tue, May 18 2004, 8:06 AM EST
Joined: 07-05-2006
Posts: 57
cigarick, there are quite a few of Bin Laden's "terrorist scrotes" in Iraq.

Some of them committed the atrocity that inspired this thread....
Cigarick Offline
#92 Posted: Tue, May 18 2004, 3:17 PM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Last I heard it was an unrelated group which was formed because Al Qaeda wasn't interested in having them join the club.
ksbodman Offline
#93 Posted: Wed, May 19 2004, 3:22 AM EST
Joined: 07-05-2006
Posts: 57
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2730253.stm

Google is a wonderful thing.
usahog Offline
#94 Posted: Wed, May 19 2004, 5:54 AM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
is this post worth posting to??

as slim pointed out.. wtf was Nick Berg doing in Iraq? family say he was there for work? CIA/FBI/NSA and other soarces you read about/hear say he somehow was connected... no matter it was live on film of how deep these POS's will go and if your not willing to go that extra mile to stop them then you'll end up just like Berg in their books... we in America base most of this country on Value's and Morals (well used to be morals) these perspectives are the slow hand that will get a soldier/person killed when dealing with people like this who believe they are doing justice in the eye's of their God when eliminating a infidel... We/America and all her Allies are in for a long Hall with this War on Terror and it will get worse before it gets better...

Hog
Homebrew Offline
#95 Posted: Wed, May 19 2004, 6:03 AM EST
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
Welcome Back Russell,
You have been missed.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
archman Offline
#96 Posted: Fri, May 21 2004, 8:05 PM EST
Joined: 11-29-2000
Posts: 30
the thing that sickens me about this the lack an outcry of discuss from the arab world and the rest of the world. also I wish the the left would not use this war as a political foootball to regain the whitehouse its the worse kind of politics Ive seen in a long time. This tactic on their part divides the country and gives aid to the enemy.
Robby Offline
#97 Posted: Fri, May 21 2004, 8:46 PM EST
Joined: 10-30-2002
Posts: 5,067
Amen...
Cigarick Offline
#98 Posted: Sat, May 22 2004, 4:06 AM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Hamas said it was "un-Islamic," but only because it took attention away from the "real atrocities," the Abu Graib incidents. Friggin' amazing.
Charlie Offline
#99 Posted: Sat, May 22 2004, 8:00 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
I guess the biggest atrocity in all of Middle East is the prison abuse (according to News Media and Networks) and the Nick Berg beheading was nothing more than an "unfortunate event" that happened and it has no more relevance to Middle East! What a ridiculous statement that was, but it seems to be true. Sad, that we loose sight everything as they flash the horrible prison crimes in front of us like they were the concentration camps of the Nazi's of WWII! This is incredible, as the Pentagon is taking action against the offenders the news still sqawks like we are doing absolutely nothing at all!

I happen to support our troops and if a few of them are bad apples, then court martial them and drum them out of the military!

Charlie
donutboy2000 Offline
#100 Posted: Sat, May 22 2004, 8:03 AM EST
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
for those that see the black helicopters:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477
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