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Romney: Obama 'threw Israel under the bus'
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HockeyDad Offline
#51 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 6:23 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
One of the things I said before was it was time for Israel to make peace now before this whole thing winds up in the UN this fall and the UN declares a Palestinian state on the pre-war 1967 borders before Israel attacked.

Based on following the news a bit more, you may now realize that my prediction is correct.

The path Israel chose is endless occupation with the backing of US dollars. Meanwhile the USA supports freedom, democracy, the right of self determination, and has started wars recently to stop ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world. Then we get all pissed off when called hypocrites.

I would hate to see a UN vote this fall be 190-2 in favor of forming a Palestinian state followed by a UN Security Council veto of a unanimous decision to send peacekeepers to help implement the resolution.

Much thanks to Israel for putting us in that position.
teedubbya Offline
#52 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 7:45 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I just have on question for Mit. Was the bus a VW?
borndead1 Offline
#53 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 12:27 PM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
frankj1 wrote:
Finkelstein reading from index cards? That's what you base your facts about 1967 on? -- I said in my post that I didn't feel like digging up and posting a bunch of this stuff. I just gave 1 link. OK by me for you to believe anything you want but at least know that this fellow, though clearly brilliant, receives assignments from Noam Chomsky to do hatchet jobs on any Pro-Israel/Pro-Judaism scholars and authors. His repeated and typical methods are to claim plagiarism based on minutiae, seemingly enough to make the non-scholars among us "question" those works. And then that "questioning" takes on a life of its own given enough fertilizer. Such is the method of ugly revisionism. -- Are you talking about Finkelstein's claim that Alan Dershowitz plagiarized stuff for his book? His claims were pretty valid if you look over the info.

Like Chomsky (who you may belive to be unAmerican) his communist leanings may play a part in his hatred of any ethnic state. -- I don't consider Chomsky to be a communist. He's more of an Anarchist really.

Do not confuse his Jewish start in life with who he is today. This is the same guy whose many other writings twisted the legacy of the Holocaust into something quite ugly and bordering on Neo-Nazi denial. -- Because he wrote the intro to a Holocaust revisionist book that he hadn't even read? His intro was some generalized stuff about freedom of speech.

I seriously have no issue with your opinions on historical events or contemporary politics, keeps things interesting for sure. -- Absolutely. These types of discussions need to happen.

Clearly we would simply argue fruitlessly so I'll just respect your rights to your thoughts while I believe they are very misguided from your choice of sources. Sometimes we seek sources that will "prove" what we wish to believe...I hope you do not do that. -- I agree and hope the same of you. I have been enjoying some of your humor and insights on these boards for a while, but I had to respond to what I felt was an injustice...I'm sure you understand.

Frank


https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol49no1/html_files/arab_israeli_war_1.html

Interesting read.
HockeyDad Offline
#54 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 1:32 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
teedubbya wrote:
I just have on question for Mit. Was the bus a VW?




Maybe a Mercedes. Those huge Mercedes buses are really nice.
frankj1 Offline
#55 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 4:11 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
HockeyDad wrote:
The Palestinian Authority recognizes Israel's right to exist. Now that your question has already been answered, Israel can go ahead and pull out of the West Bank and end the occupation, right?


not true. and you don't even have clear cut leadership there. is it possible that Israel knew of the pending unrest all around them and decided to strengthen the borders? I am asking in all seriousness...treaties are meaningless when made with governments being overthrown.
HockeyDad Offline
#56 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 4:25 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
Sorry but it is true and there is clear leadership there. It is the same leadership marching to the UN in September for Palestinian statehood.

Israel has not strengthened any borders. Israel just simply maintains the occupation. Israel didn't see any unrest coming and there are inquiries within Israeli intelligence as to why that is the case.

Meanwhile Egypt has already said they will respect all treaties. You're still hunting for an enemy to justify a 44 year long occupation.
wheelrite Offline
#57 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 4:41 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
Sorry but it is true and there is clear leadership there. It is the same leadership marching to the UN in September for Palestinian statehood.

Israel has not strengthened any borders. Israel just simply maintains the occupation. Israel didn't see any unrest coming and there are inquiries within Israeli intelligence as to why that is the case.

Meanwhile Egypt has already said they will respect all treaties. You're still hunting for an enemy to justify a 44 year long occupation.



Well,,,

If one country invades another and loses in six days,,,,

To the victor go the spoils...

So,it's not really an occupation,IMHO

There is no Rite of Return...

Btw,

Nothing coming from Egypt is credible right now.
HockeyDad Offline
#58 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 4:52 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
Well,,,

If one country invades another and loses in six days,,,,

To the victor go the spoils...

So,it's not really an occupation,IMHO

There is no Rite of Return...

Btw,

Nothing coming from Egypt is credible right now.





Fair enough. Israel should annex the land and all residents are now full Israeli citizens. You would support that, right? That would make it not an occupation.

Are you sure you're really OK with the idea that refugees from wars have no right of return?

...and if all the arabs nations got together again and attacked Israel and wiped it out, to the victor goes the spoils, right?
HockeyDad Offline
#59 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 4:54 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
RAMALLAH, West Bank — Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad suffered a heart attack while visiting the U.S. and is recovering at a Texas hospital, a spokesman said Monday.

Fayyad, who was born in 1952, was in Austin to attend the college graduation of his son, Khaled, when he felt strong chest pains Sunday, said the prime minister's spokesman, Jamal Zakout.

Fayyad, a heavy smoker, underwent tests showing a blockage in a coronary artery, Zakout said. Fayyad suffered a heart attack while at the Seton Medical Center in Austin, the spokesman said.

Doctors performed a catheterization to open the artery, Zakout said, adding that Fayyad is expected to leave the hospital in two days.

Fayyad has been prime minister since 2007. He was appointed after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas fired then-Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, following the violent Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip.

Fayyad, a political independent, is based in the West Bank, while Hamas continues to control Gaza. Fayyad could lose his job as a result of a recent reconciliation agreement between Hamas and Abbas' Fatah movement.

Fayyad has developed close ties with Western leaders, who would like him to stay on as prime minister. The Palestinians receive hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign aid every year, and Fayyad has won praise for his efforts to build a Palestinian state from the ground up.




By the way, the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority has a PHD in economics from the University of Texas and his oldest son in also now graduating from UT- Austin. Hook em Horns!
wheelrite Offline
#60 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 4:58 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
Fair enough. Israel should annex the land and all residents are now full Israeli citizens. You would support that, right? That would make it not an occupation.

Are you sure you're really OK with the idea that refugees from wars have no right of return?

...and if all the arabs nations got together again and attacked Israel and wiped it out, to the victor goes the spoils, right?


I have no problem with full citizenship.The fallacy is that there is no Palestine.There's never been a Country called Palestine.Especially after the land was carved up by the BritsThose people were screwed over by Jordan and Egypt long ago. The "Palestinians" are considered as dirty people by all other Arabs.

It's really very simple...
HockeyDad Offline
#61 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:00 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
I have no problem with full citizenship.



Problem solved.
fiddler898 Offline
#62 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:03 PM EST
Joined: 06-15-2009
Posts: 3,782
Was Mitt's dog strapped to the top of the bus?
HockeyDad Offline
#63 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:04 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
.The fallacy is that there is a Palestine.There's never been a Country called Palestine.Especially after the land was carved up by the BritsThose people were screwed over by Jordan and Egypt long ago. The "Palestinians" are considered as dirty people by all other Arabs.

It's really very simple...




This also means the USA has to back off our stance of being in favor of democracy, freedom, and peoples right to self determination.

This would put us in a bit of a conflict with our recent policies in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Bosnia, Kosovo, and South Osstetia (Russia vs Georgia).
frankj1 Offline
#64 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:05 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
HockeyDad wrote:
OK, have it your way and let's play out the scenario. Israel owns the land now because they won it in war. It is occupied by a couple of million Palestinians and you do not want them as Israeli citizens.. What's your solution? Bataan Death March or Trail of Tears?

A) I'll take choice C...but it won't be something that either of us are asked to define. As a guess, ultimately the land ends up with the Palestinians, and Israel strong arms their own out of the area or concessions are made for them to stay. It would not be the first time Israel turned it's military and bulldozers on their own in the settlements.


2011 is the only significant year. Referencing past events in history only serves the purpose of trying to make the claim that people cannot change....Israeli or Palestinian.

A) if 2011 is the only significant year, why do you set the parameter for debate where I must answer since 1967 but you don't answer from before? OK, lets talk 2011. People are changing, you have correctly pointed out that some Israelis and some Jews around the world are pushing Israel to make changes in their policies. I want this resolved too. This takes x amount of time. So what are the significant/promising changes coming from the Arab world other than the moderate Abbas losing power daily to militant factions? Or voids opening up in Arab countries all around Israel as governments fall into the unknown? Where is the groundswell equal to the admittedly slow Jewish movement to resolve this...when does moderate Islam strap on a pair and stop the radical factions? The silence is deafening.

Japan 1941......they're about to attack the USA again. Maybe not.

A) no comparison. as dumb as the Canada Mexico analogy.


It is very simple..... you simply must defend a 44 year long military occupation and 500K Israeli Jews that have colonized the West Bank with the backing of the military occupation. It is not a very defensible position.

A) I suppose if you ignore the role of your "victims", sure.

You also cannot support a one state solution where Palestinians become Israeli citizens for the exact same reason you cannot support Palestinian refugees returning to their homes in what is now Israel. Israel needs ethnic cleansing to be a "Jewish State".


A) And we all know that the dirty little Palestinian secret is they are dying to BE Israelis, right? And just to reply to your bizarrely nasty ethnic posings, how many Arabs and Palestinians are Jewish citizens, travel in and out of Israel, work, go to school, vote etc...and why can't I put my filthy feet in many of their cities? Where's the OUTRAGE for Arab change?

I may be unresponsive after this. Topper is right, as futile as arguing abortion. We ain't changing who we back.
wheelrite Offline
#65 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:05 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
Problem solved.



I suppose you think Florida should be returned to the Seminoles too ??

Or California to Mexico ??
HockeyDad Offline
#66 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:07 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
I suppose you think Florida should be returned to the Seminoles too ??

Or California to Mexico ??



Those were covered by peace treaties so it is not applicable.
topper7788 Offline
#67 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:11 PM EST
Joined: 06-21-2006
Posts: 4,719
HockeyDad wrote:
Sorry but it is true and there is clear leadership there. It is the same leadership marching to the UN in September for Palestinian statehood.

Israel has not strengthened any borders. Israel just simply maintains the occupation. Israel didn't see any unrest coming and there are inquiries within Israeli intelligence as to why that is the case.

Meanwhile Egypt has already said they will respect all treaties. You're still hunting for an enemy to justify a 44 year long occupation.


As, much as I want to stay off this board, do you seriously believe this? (actualy based on your posts i guess you do) Last time I checked Hamas is the dominant power and they DO NOT accept Israel's right to exist. Until then there cannot be any real progress. The moderate Palestinisn's only "control" part of the territories and there hold is tenuous at best - And yes business and negotiations can be done with the Palestinian's But until the Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist any negotiation is for the press only. From an Israeli point of view the status quo is preferable and safer. terror attacks are way down and that is what the average Israeli cares about. can you blame them? Israel I would assume is not going to give up territory that ends up being ccntroled by Hamas until they can reasonably feel it just won't be used as an armed base against them. Why that is unreasonable to anyone escapes me. Ad to the fact Israel's military feels it can handle anything thrown at them would seem to say that the status quo is better than the current proposed alternatives from the Israelies point of view, not "popular" world opinion that Israel must give back lands etc... When it benefits Israel to trade land for a true agreement it may happen, certainly not before that...

I guess you can spin the "occupation" any way you want and use the term "concentration" camps, which to a Jew is not the word i would ever chose, I would hope the meaning as I use the word to the way you throw the word out is different, last time I checked there were no crematoriums their...

wheelrite Offline
#68 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:11 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
Those were covered by peace treaties so it is not applicable.


um,,,

To the Victor go the Spoils....

btw,,

why do you never address the treatment of the "Palestinians" by Egypt and especially Jordan ?
HockeyDad Offline
#69 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:15 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
frankj1 wrote:
A) And we all know that the dirty little Palestinian secret is they are dying to BE Israelis, right? And just to reply to your bizarrely nasty ethnic posings, how many Arabs and Palestinians are Jewish citizens, travel in and out of Israel, work, go to school, vote etc...and why can't I put my filthy feet in many of their cities? Where's the OUTRAGE for Arab change?

I may be unresponsive after this. Topper is right, as futile as arguing abortion. We ain't changing who we back.




Nine years ago the Arab League presented a peace plan to Israel. Israel has yet to respond. You might find that once Israel had peace, you would be able to put your filthy feet in many of their cities. Actually if you're a US citizen you already can but I'm not necessarily advising it. ...but that not at all what it is all about. Israel would not end the occupation if Israelis could put their filthy feet in arab countries. I don't recall ever seeing that as an issue.

You are more than welcome to be unresponsive although it would be fun to see you comment on Wheelrite's agreement that Israel should annex the land and make everyone citizens!

The problem still is you're forced to defend a 44 year long military occupation and 500K Israeli Jews that have colonized the West Bank with the backing of the military occupation.
wheelrite Offline
#70 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:17 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
September 1970 is known as the Black September (Arabic: أيلول الأسود‎ aylūl al-aswad) in Arab history and sometimes is referred to as the "era of regrettable events." It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash the militancy of Palestinian organizations and restore his monarchy's rule over the country. The violence resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian. Armed conflict lasted until July 1971 with the expulsion of the Palestine Liberation Organisation and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon


rut roh....

wheel,
HockeyDad Offline
#71 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:17 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
um,,,

To the Victor go the Spoils....

btw,,

why do you never address the treatment of the "Palestinians" by Egypt and especially Jordan ?




Egypt and Jordan signed peace treaties with Israel. They got out of the conflict and released any claims to the West Bank and Gaza. It is Israel's problem.
frankj1 Offline
#72 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:18 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
wheelrite wrote:
I have no problem with full citizenship.The fallacy is that there is no Palestine.There's never been a Country called Palestine.Especially after the land was carved up by the BritsThose people were screwed over by Jordan and Egypt long ago. The "Palestinians" are considered as dirty people by all other Arabs.

It's really very simple...

Wheel,
I brought this up a few threads back, no Palestine existing to have been lost (the Romans or Ottomans liked the name Palestine for the territory), the "Palestinian Problem" is a creation of Jordan et al, they really are not an ethnic entity from history, they really are disdained by their own...and that's what made them so loveable to the Arab nations around Israel...let them be Israel's problem.

but that's pre 2011 and I am not allowed comment. you can run with it baby.
HockeyDad Offline
#73 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:18 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
September 1970 is known as the Black September (Arabic: أيلول الأسود‎ aylūl al-aswad) in Arab history and sometimes is referred to as the "era of regrettable events." It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash the militancy of Palestinian organizations and restore his monarchy's rule over the country. The violence resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian. Armed conflict lasted until July 1971 with the expulsion of the Palestine Liberation Organisation and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon


rut roh....

wheel,




The Palestinian refugees didn't exactly behave in Jordan in 1970. Can you explain what bearing this has on 2011?
frankj1 Offline
#74 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:20 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
borndead1 wrote:
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol49no1/html_files/arab_israeli_war_1.html

Interesting read.

will try to read tonight, thanks.
wheelrite Offline
#75 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:23 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
The Palestinian refugees didn't exactly behave in Jordan in 1970. Can you explain what bearing this has on 2011?


Well,,
You refer to a 44 yr old issue with Isarael to ad nauseuem . This issue was hoisted upon Isarael and made worse by Jordan.
HockeyDad Offline
#76 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:23 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
frankj1 wrote:
Wheel,
I brought this up a few threads back, no Palestine existing to have been lost (the Romans or Ottomans liked the name Palestine for the territory), the "Palestinian Problem" is a creation of Jordan et al, they really are not an ethnic entity from history, they really are disdained by their own...and that's what made them so loveable to the Arab nations around Israel...let them be Israel's problem.

but that's pre 2011 and I am not allowed comment. you can run with it baby.




Then annex them and make them Israeli citizens.
HockeyDad Offline
#77 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:26 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
Well,,
You refer to a 44 yr old issue with Isarael to ad nauseuem . This issue was hoisted upon Isarael and made worse by Jordan.




At least we only dump $2.5 billion a year into it.
frankj1 Offline
#78 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:28 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
HockeyDad wrote:
The Palestinian refugees didn't exactly behave in Jordan in 1970. Can you explain what bearing this has on 2011?

Now I'm confused. Can we or can we not talk about pre 2011? You have been doing it off and on. Not fair.
frankj1 Offline
#79 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:31 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
HockeyDad wrote:
The Palestinian refugees didn't exactly behave in Jordan in 1970. Can you explain what bearing this has on 2011?

If I can't talk about them firing rockets at Israel and behaving really badly for a half century, then you can't bring up how horrible they behaved in 1970.

But at least you established their history of bad behavior for us. Thanks.
HockeyDad Offline
#80 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:33 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
topper7788 wrote:
As, much as I want to stay off this board, do you seriously believe this? (actualy based on your posts i guess you do) Last time I checked Hamas is the dominant power and they DO NOT accept Israel's right to exist. Until then there cannot be any real progress. The moderate Palestinisn's only "control" part of the territories and there hold is tenuous at best - And yes business and negotiations can be done with the Palestinian's But until the Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist any negotiation is for the press only. From an Israeli point of view the status quo is preferable and safer. terror attacks are way down and that is what the average Israeli cares about. can you blame them? Israel I would assume is not going to give up territory that ends up being ccntroled by Hamas until they can reasonably feel it just won't be used as an armed base against them. Why that is unreasonable to anyone escapes me. Ad to the fact Israel's military feels it can handle anything thrown at them would seem to say that the status quo is better than the current proposed alternatives from the Israelies point of view, not "popular" world opinion that Israel must give back lands etc... When it benefits Israel to trade land for a true agreement it may happen, certainly not before that...

I guess you can spin the "occupation" any way you want and use the term "concentration" camps, which to a Jew is not the word i would ever chose, I would hope the meaning as I use the word to the way you throw the word out is different, last time I checked there were no crematoriums their...





I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)

Right now Hamas is not the dominant power but I'm sure they will be after another 2 years of failure at peace negotiations. The best thing that could happen to solidify this is another war before the September UN meeting. Something needs to be done to re-convince the world that Palestinians cannot be good neighbors.

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination. I would also release Shalit with absolutely nothing in exchange. That would be a checkmate move. I have no expectation Hamas is smart.
HockeyDad Offline
#81 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:36 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
frankj1 wrote:
If I can't talk about them firing rockets at Israel and behaving really badly for a half century, then you can't bring up how horrible they behaved in 1970.

But at least you established their history of bad behavior for us. Thanks.



I didn't bring it up, Wheelrite did. I think the history of Palestinian and Israeli bad behavior is pretty well documented. The only question is will it ever end.
HockeyDad Offline
#82 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 5:47 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
OK guys.....seriously.....I know I hammer you guys hard on this one and it mainly is because nobody can actually say what they mean or want because it is so incredibly politically incorrect to admit.

From a USA standpoint. Israel has forced us into a position of defending a 44 year long military occupation and 500K Israeli Jews that have colonized the West Bank with the backing of the military occupation. We give political lip service saying it should end on negotiated borders but we all know the USA will fully back it never ending.

Since World War 1, the USA has fought in many wars to stop exactly what we now defend as an exclusive right for Israel but nobody else in the world. (remember how fast we tossed Iraq out of Kuwait.)

Is there a peace solution that Israel and the Palestinians could actually accept. Put aside the political rhetoric.....

What is a workable solution?
borndead1 Offline
#83 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 6:00 PM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
HockeyDad wrote:
If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination.


They already did. Like 2-3 years ago. Actually several top Hamas guys have said that.
topper7788 Offline
#84 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 6:12 PM EST
Joined: 06-21-2006
Posts: 4,719
borndead1 wrote:
They already did. Like 2-3 years ago. Actually several top Hamas guys have said that.



Like NO, there official position is the destruction of the Jewish state..

Can't let one or two moderates confuse things ?.
topper7788 Offline
#85 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 6:14 PM EST
Joined: 06-21-2006
Posts: 4,719
HockeyDad wrote:
I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)

Right now Hamas is not the dominant power but I'm sure they will be after another 2 years of failure at peace negotiations. The best thing that could happen to solidify this is another war before the September UN meeting. Something needs to be done to re-convince the world that Palestinians cannot be good neighbors.

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination. I would also release Shalit with absolutely nothing in exchange. That would be a checkmate move. I have no expectation Hamas is smart.


Yep, then you could have a meaningful negotiation... And it won't happen...
topper7788 Offline
#86 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 6:18 PM EST
Joined: 06-21-2006
Posts: 4,719
HockeyDad wrote:
I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)

Right now Hamas is not the dominant power but I'm sure they will be after another 2 years of failure at peace negotiations. The best thing that could happen to solidify this is another war before the September UN meeting. Something needs to be done to re-convince the world that Palestinians cannot be good neighbors.

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination. I would also release Shalit with absolutely nothing in exchange. That would be a checkmate move. I have no expectation Hamas is smart.



Why, that's basically the Israeli thinking on the issue... Hamas is the road block, not Israel... Of course o would say the opposite and that Israel never wants peace, which is simply not true... But it has to be a win-win deal, not a Israel loses deal... And your correct, Hamas is not that smart...
borndead1 Offline
#87 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 6:26 PM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
topper7788 wrote:
Like NO, there official position is the destruction of the Jewish state..

Can't let one or two moderates confuse things ?.



Their TOP GUY in Syria said several years ago that Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for a return to the pre 1967 borders, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and East Jarusalem as the capital. Several other top Hamas guys have said the same thing since then. Sure, there are still Hamas guys who say they will never recognize Israel, just like there are Israeli political and religious leaders who call for the entire region to be Israel. It's always the blowhards who grab the headlines and get their soundbytes played.
wheelrite Offline
#88 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 6:51 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)

Right now Hamas is not the dominant power but I'm sure they will be after another 2 years of failure at peace negotiations. The best thing that could happen to solidify this is another war before the September UN meeting. Something needs to be done to re-convince the world that Palestinians cannot be good neighbors.

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination. I would also release Shalit with absolutely nothing in exchange. That would be a checkmate move. I have no expectation Hamas is smart.


The fallacy with this post is that you obviously see Hamas as a legit Politcal Party,they are not,far from it.

All Hamas is a puppet with the Iranians pulling the strings.

You see..

The Arabs need to remove their Petroleum shaded blinders and see that the end game is Iran being the dominant power in the middle east.

Btw,they detest Arabs,,,



wheel,
wheelrite Offline
#89 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 7:09 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HD,,,

this pretty much says it ....


"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel.
We are preparing for an all out war, a war which will last for generations."
~ Yasser Arafat ~
"The Palestinian people have no national identity.
I, Yasser Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel."



Arafat,,
a terrorist that made millions $$$$$
frankj1 Offline
#90 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 7:15 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
HockeyDad wrote:
I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)

Right now Hamas is not the dominant power but I'm sure they will be after another 2 years of failure at peace negotiations. The best thing that could happen to solidify this is another war before the September UN meeting. Something needs to be done to re-convince the world that Palestinians cannot be good neighbors.

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination. I would also release Shalit with absolutely nothing in exchange. That would be a checkmate move. I have no expectation Hamas is smart.

First, it's great to be back!!

OK, the "current status quo" is 40 odd years without war. Sounds like it has been a peace solution, just not a Palestinian statehood solution. How that makes Israel war mongerers is oxymoronic. They have prevented war with a pretty angry group being manipulated disgracefully by pretty clever Israeli haters for over 4 decades.

You have it totally wrong in paragraph 2...something must be done for the first time EVAH to convince the world and more importantly Israel that the Palestinians CAN be good neighbors. Ain't done it yet.

Rumor has it on these boards that Hamas and others have done the recognition thing. How the F did all the news outlets miss this historical announcement? Nonetheless, Hamas is smart in that they hope more folks join your club and eventually make Israel disappear. We all know that Arab negotiators are willing to wait for hundreds of years. may want to start pushing them to change that.
frankj1 Offline
#91 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 7:27 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
borndead1 wrote:
Their TOP GUY in Syria said several years ago that Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for a return to the pre 1967 borders, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and East Jarusalem as the capital. Several other top Hamas guys have said the same thing since then. Sure, there are still Hamas guys who say they will never recognize Israel, just like there are Israeli political and religious leaders who call for the entire region to be Israel. It's always the blowhards who grab the headlines and get their soundbytes played.

if if if if if ...it's like saying Israel can stay, only different. you wouldn't buy it if you were Israel.
frankj1 Offline
#92 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 7:38 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
HockeyDad wrote:
OK guys.....seriously.....I know I hammer you guys hard on this one and it mainly is because nobody can actually say what they mean or want because it is so incredibly politically incorrect to admit.

From a USA standpoint. Israel has forced us into a position of defending a 44 year long military occupation and 500K Israeli Jews that have colonized the West Bank with the backing of the military occupation. We give political lip service saying it should end on negotiated borders but we all know the USA will fully back it never ending.

Since World War 1, the USA has fought in many wars to stop exactly what we now defend as an exclusive right for Israel but nobody else in the world. (remember how fast we tossed Iraq out of Kuwait.)

Is there a peace solution that Israel and the Palestinians could actually accept. Put aside the political rhetoric.....

What is a workable solution?


Not agreeing with all of the above (eg just can't recall Kuwait invading Iraq) but you are right, tis well past the time we move off the spot on which we are stuck. This couldn't have been easy for you, but I am laughing reading "put aside the political rhetoric" immediately below "an exclusive right for Israel..."

Change causes anxiety (intro to social work 101) so I'll understand that you may require a transition period to get it out of your system.

I'll try to be productive...but neo nazis need not apply.

Topper, nice work dude.
frankj1 Offline
#93 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 7:56 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
borndead1 wrote:
Their TOP GUY in Syria said several years ago that Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for a return to the pre 1967 borders, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and East Jarusalem as the capital. Several other top Hamas guys have said the same thing since then. Sure, there are still Hamas guys who say they will never recognize Israel, just like there are Israeli political and religious leaders who call for the entire region to be Israel. It's always the blowhards who grab the headlines and get their soundbytes played.

Dude, come in from the fringe, we need your brain power. There is not now nor has there ever been any serious movement by any serious spokesperson advocating Israel taking over the region, nor has it ever been the subject of any serious news coverage...however, there has been decades of Arab power brokers advocating it and this is irrefutable.

Even the mostly now defunct radical violent JDL (Jewish Defense League) was mostly about defending not expanding.

Be part of the productive debate, seriously. You have to be digging way deep in the strange archives of news coverage to come up with an Israeli movement to own the middle east. Even HD hasn't proposed the belief that Israel is trying to drive all of it's Arab neighbors into the sea, he is saying that the arabs no longer wish to do that to Israel and we disagree on that.
borndead1 Offline
#94 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 8:18 PM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
frankj1 wrote:
Dude, come in from the fringe, we need your brain power. There is not now nor has there ever been any serious movement by any serious spokesperson advocating Israel taking over the region, nor has it ever been the subject of any serious news coverage...however, there has been decades of Arab power brokers advocating it and this is irrefutable.

Even the mostly now defunct radical violent JDL (Jewish Defense League) was mostly about defending not expanding.

Be part of the productive debate, seriously. You have to be digging way deep in the strange archives of news coverage to come up with an Israeli movement to own the middle east. Even HD hasn't proposed the belief that Israel is trying to drive all of it's Arab neighbors into the sea, he is saying that the arabs no longer wish to do that to Israel and we disagree on that.


When I said 'region' I didn't mean the entire middle east...I meant the region that makes up Israel and Palestine. You can find videos and statements of Israeli politicos and rabbis calling for this...just like you can find videos of Palestinians and other Arabs calling for the destruction of Israel. You can also find both Israelis and Arabs that want peace and a return to the 1967 borders. But somehow those don't make it into mainstream media fodder.

I'm not on "the fringe" and I take offense at you trying in a roundabout way to paint me as some kind of kook. I research and study this sh*t constantly. I read the pro Israel stuff, the anti Israel stuff, the Wiki stuff, and the stuff that claims to be unbiased. I listen to the debates and discussions. You obviously don't. You really should.
HockeyDad Offline
#95 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 9:54 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
topper7788 wrote:
Why, that's basically the Israeli thinking on the issue... Hamas is the road block, not Israel... Of course o would say the opposite and that Israel never wants peace, which is simply not true... But it has to be a win-win deal, not a Israel loses deal... And your correct, Hamas is not that smart...



That is not the Israeli thinking on the issue. That is only the excuse of the day because Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are trying to reconcile. That excuse didn't exist a month ago or even last year when the negotiations broke down and Hamas wasn't even involved.
HockeyDad Offline
#96 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 9:58 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
The fallacy with this post is that you obviously see Hamas as a legit Politcal Party,they are not,far from it.

All Hamas is a puppet with the Iranians pulling the strings.

You see..

The Arabs need to remove their Petroleum shaded blinders and see that the end game is Iran being the dominant power in the middle east.

Btw,they detest Arabs,,,



wheel,




Whether you like it or not, Hamas became a political party.

By the way, I tricked you earlier when I got you to agree that Israel should annex the West Bank and make everyone there Israeli citizens. Israel has actually rejected this idea through at least the last three Israeli presidents. This actually would be considered a pro-Palestinian position. I know.....it is counter intuitive. I just wanted to see if you knew anything about the region.
HockeyDad Offline
#97 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 9:59 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
HD,,,

this pretty much says it ....


"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel.
We are preparing for an all out war, a war which will last for generations."
~ Yasser Arafat ~
"The Palestinian people have no national identity.
I, Yasser Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel."



Arafat,,
a terrorist that made millions $$$$$




Arafat never wanted peace. That is why the French killed him.
HockeyDad Offline
#98 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 10:06 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
frankj1 wrote:
First, it's great to be back!!

OK, the "current status quo" is 40 odd years without war. Sounds like it has been a peace solution, just not a Palestinian statehood solution. How that makes Israel war mongerers is oxymoronic. They have prevented war with a pretty angry group being manipulated disgracefully by pretty clever Israeli haters for over 4 decades.

You have it totally wrong in paragraph 2...something must be done for the first time EVAH to convince the world and more importantly Israel that the Palestinians CAN be good neighbors. Ain't done it yet.

Rumor has it on these boards that Hamas and others have done the recognition thing. How the F did all the news outlets miss this historical announcement? Nonetheless, Hamas is smart in that they hope more folks join your club and eventually make Israel disappear. We all know that Arab negotiators are willing to wait for hundreds of years. may want to start pushing them to change that.




40 years without war except for two wars with Lebanon, Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, and two intifadas. I guess that is peace.

I thought you already pointed out that the Palestinians can be good neighbors. Didn't you mention something about the arabs that live in Israel peacefully? That should be evidence that Israel can let the refugees come home and everyone will live in peace.

My club isn't trying to make Israel disappear. If you're down to that.....just say it. It is the natural defense.
HockeyDad Offline
#99 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 10:10 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
frankj1 wrote:
Not agreeing with all of the above (eg just can't recall Kuwait invading Iraq) but you are right, tis well past the time we move off the spot on which we are stuck. This couldn't have been easy for you, but I am laughing reading "put aside the political rhetoric" immediately below "an exclusive right for Israel..."

Change causes anxiety (intro to social work 101) so I'll understand that you may require a transition period to get it out of your system.

I'll try to be productive...but neo nazis need not apply.

Topper, nice work dude.




Name another country that is conducting a military occupation for 44 years that the USA supports. 5 years? 2 years? One year?

So you have no solution to offer. I can accept that "no solution ever" is a viable answer.

Who are you calling a neo-nazi that is trying to apply?
wheelrite Offline
#100 Posted: Mon, May 23 2011, 10:15 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
Whether you like it or not, Hamas became a political party.

By the way, I tricked you earlier when I got you to agree that Israel should annex the West Bank and make everyone there Israeli citizens. Israel has actually rejected this idea through at least the last three Israeli presidents. This actually would be considered a pro-Palestinian position. I know.....it is counter intuitive. I just wanted to see if you knew anything about the region.



My opinions are not in lock step with Israel. The people that reside in Israeli territiory should be allowed assimilate,in my opinion.
I'm not anti- Palestinian.I'm a pragmatist.

sadly,,

HD you aren't always the smartest guy in the room...
Your myopic anti Israeli talking points are old and worn out.
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