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Romney: Obama 'threw Israel under the bus'
HockeyDad Offline
#101 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
My opinions are not in lock step with Isarael. The people that reside in Israeli territiory should be allowed assimilate,in my opinion.
I'm not anti- Palestinian.I'm a pragmatist.

sadly,,

HD you aren't always the smartest guy in the room...
Your myopic anti Isaraeli talking points are old and worn out.





I could agree that the people that reside in Israeli territory should be allowed to assimilate but if I took that position I would then be anti-Israeli. I am not taking that position. I want a negotiated peace, a 2 state solution, and the USA out of the regional conflicts there. You just don't understand, that's all. That's OK.
frankj1 Offline
#102 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234

re #96

Borndead

we don't know anything about each other, we have only had access to a few words to make quick appraisals...always risky. But I correctly perceived that you do have a passion and intellect, so reached out in an unintended insulting manner (though admittedly provocative) to encourage more from you on this topic figuring the same few voices were getting redundant. I evidently misinterpreted two posts as indicative of where you are positioned:1) Finkelstein (sorry, but I consider him a rogue Jewish voice), and 2) the phrase "entire region", not just "region". To me,your use of "entire region" meant you were claiming what I inferred, you say not so, OK I accept that. I responded to your written words literally. But it would have placed you out there if you really believed that Israel wants the entire region, no?

That said, I think if Israel wanted Israel AND "Palestine", it would have been accomplished a looooong time ago.

And hey, I'm watching what you suggest so don't call me closed to opposing views either.

Frank
wheelrite Offline
#103 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
I could agree that the people that reside in Israeli territory should be allowed to assimilate but if I took that position I would then be anti-Israeli. I am not taking that position. I want a negotiated peace, a 2 state solution, and the USA out of the regional conflicts there. You just don't understand, that's all. That's OK.


There will never be a 2 state solution.The Arabs and the Iranians don't want a peaceful solution.I suppose you don't get it.


You're the Neville Chamberlain of cbid..
HockeyDad Offline
#104 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
There will never be a 2 state solution.The Arabs and the Iranians don't want a peaceful solution.I suppose you don't get it.


You're the Neville Chamberlain of cbid..




Well if the Arabs and the Iranians don't want a peaceful solution then it sounds like we need some more wars. I'm OK with that as well. The next one will be the worst. I would have preferred peace and a lasting Israel but I guess I'm just Neville Chamberlain and that part of the world is just condemned to eternal warfare.
frankj1 Offline
#105 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
HockeyDad wrote:
40 years without war except for two wars with Lebanon, Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, and two intifadas. I guess that is peace.

You keep changing the rules of debate...didn't you insist the discussion on your part was only about the west bank?

I thought you already pointed out that the Palestinians can be good neighbors. Didn't you mention something about the arabs that live in Israel peacefully? That should be evidence that Israel can let the refugees come home and everyone will live in peace.

My comments were pointing out that Israel has at least some record of being tolerant, but where is the evidence that the other folks not already assimilated in Israel have ever shown the same?

My club isn't trying to make Israel disappear. If you're down to that.....just say it. It is the natural defense.

Poorly written on my part, did not mean nor believe that you personally want the disappearing thing, but rather the more support your "club" generates over the years, the more hamas et al can hang on to their real agenda of just that very thing. You won't get what you want, you will be encouraging false hope in those that wish Israel's destruction.
wheelrite Offline
#106 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
Well if the Arabs and the Iranians don't want a peaceful solution then it sounds like we need some more wars. I'm OK with that as well. The next one will be the worst. I would have preferred peace and a lasting Israel but I guess I'm just Neville Chamberlain and that part of the world is just condemned to eternal warfare.


well..
IF the war would've been allowed to be waged 40 yrs ago,this would be an academic discussion. Contrary to French defeatist theology sometimes the bad guys must be killed.

The real world is not always rainbows ,lolllypops and croissant...
HockeyDad Offline
#107 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
well..
IF the war would've been allowed to be waged 40 yrs ago,this would be an academic discussion. Contrary to French defeatist theology sometimes the bad guys must be killed.

The real world is not always rainbows ,lolllypops and croissant...




You mean the slaughter of civilians?
wheelrite Offline
#108 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
You mean the slaughter of civilians?


in war there are no civilians.

Read your history
frankj1 Offline
#109 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
HockeyDad wrote:
Name another country that is conducting a military occupation for 44 years that the USA supports. 5 years? 2 years? One year?

So you have no solution to offer. I can accept that "no solution ever" is a viable answer.

Who are you calling a neo-nazi that is trying to apply?

I called no one a neo nazi!! I was simply letting any out there know that they can't be productive participants, obviously you never get my humor. The old "need not apply" tag line was used for decades in the most vile and repugnant way to let Irish, Italian, Jewish etc immigrants know that job openings excluded them! I guess you are younger than I estimated but my grandfather told me of signs posted that said "now hiring, Irish need not apply". Thought everyone's grand daddy relayed this poison to succeeding generations.

failed attempt at irony. I shall eliminate humor going forward.

solutions (once again) will require true vows of Israel's right to exist, not your say so. I thought Topper already covered this.
HockeyDad Offline
#110 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
frankj1 wrote:
Poorly written on my part, did not mean nor believe that you personally want the disappearing thing, but rather the more support your "club" generates over the years, the more hamas et al can hang on to their real agenda of just that very thing. You won't get what you want, you will be encouraging false hope in those that wish Israel's destruction.



I think the trick for Israel is to force Hamas to give up that agenda. The Palestinian Authority does not have the same agenda as Hamas but they have been unsuccessful at negotiating peace and this only strengthens Hamas. If Israel threw the PA a few bones that the PA could show as successful peace negotiations, Hamas would be neutered. This is what "my club" wants. The opposite is happening right now.

Personally I think the area could have peace but the window of opportunity is closing. Wheelrite thinks there will never be a window of opportunity. You may agree with him. I respect that opinion but it does mean endless war as I have said before and ultimately complete destruction of the region.
wheelrite Offline
#111 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
I think the trick for Israel is to force Hamas to give up that agenda. The Palestinian Authority does not have the same agenda as Hamas but they have been unsuccessful at negotiating peace and this only strengthens Hamas. If Israel threw the PA a few bones that the PA could show as successful peace negotiations, Hamas would be neutered. This is what "my club" wants. The opposite is happening right now.

Personally I think the area could have peace but the window of opportunity is closing. Wheelrite thinks there will never be a window of opportunity. You may agree with him. I respect that opinion but it does mean endless war as I have said before and ultimately complete destruction of the region.



what you fail to comprehend or acknowledge,

For there to be peace both parties must desire it.

Hamas ,Iran and the PLO do not...
HockeyDad Offline
#112 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
frankj1 wrote:

solutions (once again) will require true vows of Israel's right to exist, not your say so. I thought Topper already covered this.



You have it from the Arab League and the Palestinian Authority based on their peace proposal.

You don't have it from Hamas or Hezbollah.....or Iran.
wheelrite Offline
#113 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
You have it from the Arab League and the Palestinian Authority based on their peace proposal.

You don't have it from Hamas or Hezbollah.....or Iran.



The Arab League,,,lol

That's like The Daughters of the American Revolution declaring peace n the middle east
HockeyDad Offline
#114 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
The Arab League,,,lol

That's like The Daughters of the American Revolution declaring peace n the middle east



The advantage of talking to the Arab League is it represents 22 nations. The Daughters of the American Revolution represent zero.
frankj1 Offline
#115 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
HockeyDad wrote:
I think the trick for Israel is to force Hamas to give up that agenda. The Palestinian Authority does not have the same agenda as Hamas but they have been unsuccessful at negotiating peace and this only strengthens Hamas. If Israel threw the PA a few bones that the PA could show as successful peace negotiations, Hamas would be neutered. This is what "my club" wants. The opposite is happening right now.

Personally I think the area could have peace but the window of opportunity is closing. Wheelrite thinks there will never be a window of opportunity. You may agree with him. I respect that opinion but it does mean endless war as I have said before and ultimately complete destruction of the region.

Cogent points, but part of the PA's failure is that they could be run out of town at any moment. This is why I say there must be fundamental changes on their side, more stuff propping up the power of the moderates before Israel would be comfortable relinquishing the control that keeps them free of carnage so far. It is the task of the Palestinains to control Hamas. If you ask Israel to supply the impetus you are saying that the PA does not have the "right stuff". Those would be some big-ass bones. But it is interesting,

Maybe the window is closing, but maybe not. If you were Israel, would you want to wait until all of these uprisings shake out and just focus on having your "D" on alert? Would you be concerned about weapons coming in from the east through Jordan, or through the canal etc etc?

I do want a solution, I do want peace. Honest. I am just another one that feels no faith/trust in the words of the other side...yet. Deeds talk. Put down Hamas.
wheelrite Offline
#116 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
The advantage of talking to the Arab League is it represents 22 nations. The Daughters of the American Revolution represent zero.


and both have ZERO influence...
wheelrite Offline
#117 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Media Monitors Network






Mohamed Khodr's Column



Dissolve The Arab League: A Symbol of Impotence


by Mohamed Khodr

The League of Arab States officially founded on March 22, 1945 has for the past 56 years been nothing more than a pathetic, shameful, wasteful, and impotent organization designed more for domestic Arab consumption by egotistical corrupt Arab leaders than for addressing urgent political, economic, social, or educational issues that haunt the impoverished and mostly illiterate Arab masses. From its inception, inter-Arab rivalry and conflicts, formation of regional Arab councils, and Cold War allegiances have rendered this organization into an irrelevant, cosmetic, pseudo-symbol of "Arab unity." It's a voluntary association whose purpose was to strengthen ties among the member states, coordinate their policies, and promote their common interests. At no time in its long history did it ever succeed accomplishing any of these objectives. Even today with the world's turmoil caused by America's "war on terrorism du jour", which blatantly is directed at Arab and Muslim nations; with the second Palestinian Intifadah; with potential American attacks on Arab nations, our illustrious "Arab League" is internally fighting as to the upcoming summit's location. While Arab and Muslim blood is being spilled our "leaders" are squandering time, money, and self respect to even agree on a place to meet.



Try again Francois !!
lol

wheel,
frankj1 Offline
#118 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,234
wheelrite wrote:
The Arab League,,,lol

That's like The Daughters of the American Revolution declaring peace n the middle east

How can I swear off humor when something so funny gets posted. Has anyone heard from B'nai Brith?
HockeyDad Offline
#119 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
and both have ZERO influence...



Actually I do. I can bring business and jobs to Israel.
HockeyDad Offline
#120 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
Wheel,

That editorial may not like the Arab League but they did come together and offer a unified peace proposal.
wheelrite Offline
#121 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
Actually I do. I can bring business and jobs to Israel.


That's nice I'm sure for both of you..

But,it's really not relevant..
wheelrite Offline
#122 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
Wheel,

That editorial may not like the Arab League but they did come together and offer a unified peace proposal.


so did Carter,Clinton and Bush yada yada yada...

Land for Peace is not a solution.The Terrorists will never relent.Get it ?
HockeyDad Offline
#123 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
There are millions of people involved. They are not all terrorists.
wheelrite Offline
#124 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Btw,

The closest The US and USSR came to Nuclear conflict was during the 1973 Israeli war.
Had the US and USSR not got invoilved this whole issue may have been resolved then once and for all.
wheelrite Offline
#125 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
There are millions of people involved. They are not all terrorists.


They permit themslelves to be ruled by terrorists..They actually elected them .So,they are also culpable.
HockeyDad Offline
#126 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
wheelrite wrote:
They permit themslelves to be ruled by terrorists..They actually elected them .So,they are also culpable.




The Palestinian Authority aren't terrorists. Remember that one of their top guys is a Texas Longhorn grad?
wheelrite Offline
#127 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
HockeyDad wrote:
The Palestinian Authority aren't terrorists. Remember that one of their top guys is a Texas Longhorn grad?


Yeah, and the 9-11 Hijackers took flying lessons in Florida..
wheelrite Offline
#128 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
Goodnight HD...
rfenst Offline
#129 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,382
HockeyDad wrote:
I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)



Um... I admit it, but never felt the need to because it is so blatantly obvious.
rfenst Offline
#130 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,382
borndead1 wrote:
Their TOP GUY in Syria said several years ago that Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for a return to the pre 1967 borders, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and East Jarusalem as the capital. Several other top Hamas guys have said the same thing since then. Sure, there are still Hamas guys who say they will never recognize Israel, just like there are Israeli political and religious leaders who call for the entire region to be Israel. It's always the blowhards who grab the headlines and get their soundbytes played.


What you are referring to occurred in 20066. It was NOT a formal position taken by Hamas. Even if it had been, it is a non-starter. It means nothing because it was conitional.

Israel will never agree on a right of return for Palestinians. It will never agree to give up East Jerusalem. These are the conditions precedent to the previous "recognition" made by some in Hamas. The "recognition" is empty, at best.

If you read the news form the last few days, you will see that Hamas spokespersons are currently expressing regrett that there was any previous unofficial conditional recognition.
topper7788 Offline
#131 Posted:
Joined: 06-21-2006
Posts: 4,719
rfenst wrote:
What you are referring to occurred in 20066. It was NOT a formal position taken by Hamas. Even if it had been, it is a non-starter. It means nothing because it was conitional.

Israel will never agree on a right of return for Palestinians. It will never agree to give up East Jerusalem. These are the conditions precedent to the previous "recognition" made by some in Hamas. The "recognition" is empty, at best.

If you read the news form the last few days, you will see that Hamas spokespersons are currently expressing regrett that there was any previous unofficial conditional recognition.


Why are you trying to confuse things with facts... Come on everyone knows Hamas is a peace loving "political" party

is BD serious, a peace treaty on Hamas's terms? Would be Kind of like the Jews signing a peace treaty with Hitler in the 30's ..
HockeyDad Offline
#132 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
The thing that makes Hamas so difficult to deal with is that they started as a terrorist group but grew into being a political party, they operate a quasi-government, run schools, hospitals, social services and yet also still at their core are still a terrorist group and have not renounced violence.

Based on what I'm hearing on this thread, the status quo and continued occupation is the best course for Israel so it only seems logical that Hamas should maintain their status quo.
HockeyDad Offline
#133 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
Netanyahu's speech to the US Congress should be interesting today. Much anticipation has been created that he is going to offer something new to restart the peace process. I actually expect he will just restate the exact same stance because his political future is on the line. He got elected on a war platform and I don't see that changing.

If there are no surprises and it is just the same old thing, I'm ready to totally change my stance and agree with Wheelrite's position and acknowledge there is no two state solution. It will take very little to push me over to that camp. Too much time has been wasted trying to find some magical two state solution. There is a point where we have to just acknowledge the clock has expired and the game is over. The idea that Israel should annex the West Bank and Gaza immediately and grant Israeli citizenship and full rights to everyone there and they need to begin to assimilate is viable. Time to live together side by side in a nation called Israel.

That would change the status quo and put all this nonsense to rest. I'm going to give Netanyahu a chance today but after that, I think Wheelrite wins for the best offered solution so far.
borndead1 Offline
#134 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
topper7788 wrote:
Why are you trying to confuse things with facts... Come on everyone knows Hamas is a peace loving "political" party

is BD serious, a peace treaty on Hamas's terms? Would be Kind of like the Jews signing a peace treaty with Hitler in the 30's ..



Aw sh*t...topper made a Hitler comparison. The thread has officially been killed.



I never said Hamas had taken any kind of formal position. All I'm saying is that several of their top guys have stated a willingness to compromise. And even the 1967 borders is a compromise, if you look at Israel proper in 1948 compared to 1967. The maps speak for themselves.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#135 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Hmmm...based on this thread...God let me become ressurected after the Apoclypse.

The UP of Michigan should be returned.

California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah and New Mexico should be returned to Mexico.

Matter of fact...most of the US should be returned to the United Kingdom under the guise of no spoils of War.

Stop the insanity that Israel isn't entitled to the land that was a spoil of war. A war they didn't start...4 times! A war if they didn't have that land it would be another staging area.

If Hamas is this big charitable organization then why do they seek the end of Israel and destruction of all Jews?

Wipe them from the face of the Earth.

Let any one of the awesome neighbors Israel has take the scourge that's been allowed to fester. Afterall it's one big Arab brotherhood.

They won't do it though. Know why? Because they're using them as pawns.

Pawns that should know better.

Pawns that need to go.





HockeyDad Offline
#136 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
Actually Israel started the 1967 war and that is why returning to those pre-war borders always comes up and is backed by UN resolutions.

However since Israel's peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt released any claims on that land to Israel, I would make the same case that Israel doesn't have to return that land to anyone just like the USA doesn't have to return the southwest to Mexico. I believe a peace treaty between nations takes priority over some old UN resolution.

This supports Wheelrite's solution.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#137 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
The UN is an organization that has done more harm than good.

Clinging onto this useless collective bargaining shroud of a sham exposes them for what they want.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#138 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Maybe NATO could carve out a piece of Labia for them to all huddle and whine.ram27bat
HockeyDad Offline
#139 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
I could support moving the UN to Labia.

DrMaddVibe Offline
#140 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
I want it out of the US for sure.

I want the US out of it too!

Putting it deep inside Labia would be a great start!whip
DrafterX Offline
#141 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,566
DrMaddVibe wrote:

California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah and New Mexico should be returned to Mexico.

Matter of fact...most of the US should be returned to the United Kingdom under the guise of no spoils of War.










Speak to the hand uhhhh.. excuse me....

the American Indians were defending this country way before the UK or anyone else came around... and you want to give it away to someone else..??

nobody ever thinks about the Indians.... Sad
DrMaddVibe Offline
#142 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
DrafterX wrote:
Speak to the hand uhhhh.. excuse me....

the American Indians were defending this country way before the UK or anyone else came around... and you want to give it away to someone else..??

nobody ever thinks about the Indians.... Sad



You're right!

So stop this looking for CROS nonsense and git busy!
HockeyDad Offline
#143 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
DrafterX wrote:

the American Indians were defending this country way before the UK or anyone else came around...




Well they did a pretty crappy job of it. You call that defending?????
DrMaddVibe Offline
#144 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
HockeyDad wrote:
Well they did a pretty crappy job of it. You call that defending?????



Actually the thought of land ownership was totally foreign to them.

Besides they took the beads.Frying pan
DrafterX Offline
#145 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,566
we should have never fed the pilgrims.... Not talking
DrMaddVibe Offline
#146 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
DrafterX wrote:
we should have never fed the pilgrims.... Not talking



We?

We??!

You were there?
DrafterX Offline
#147 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,566
ya.... I've seen alot.... don't tell anyone tho... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#148 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
On the bright side, as it turns out May 21 was just the spiritual Judgment Day. Everything is still on for the end of the world on October 21.

That actually times out decent with the UN declaration of a Palestinian state in September.

DrMaddVibe Offline
#149 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
That guy doesn't have a good batting record.

Maybe he should look for a UFO behind a comet or break out the Jonestown punch and help out the gene pool.

Beer
HockeyDad Offline
#150 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
DrMaddVibe wrote:
That guy doesn't have a good batting record.

Maybe he should look for a UFO behind a comet or break out the Jonestown punch and help out the gene pool.

Beer




He's 0-2 right now but if he can go 1-3, that's .333 and he'll make the all-star team.
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