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Yes too many public schools.

Very true, I wasn't complaining. Just a counterpoint to the uninfomed opinions about how cushy teachers have it. I can't speak for all districts/states but even the health insurance they receive in retirement is funded by the teachers during their active years. Unfortunately many of these accounts have been mismanaged by state government. I'm pretty sure (not 100% sure) that even the folks in the infamous Wisconsin debacle are not covered by taxpayers unless they outlive the projected life expectancy...despite what their Governor was putting out there.

We are pissed off we are so far behind. The problem is that most other countries have cut offs and weed outs. Our country is one that thinks that everyone can learn at the same level, no questions asked. The mentally handicapped kid can learn just as well and to the same standard as the honor student can, it is just the teachers fault if they can't! That is "No child left behind"!

Other countries, like China, have cuts in their education system. About 6th grade, they have a weed out of the kids not making it, they go to the factories and work for the rest of their lives making toys and painting your kids toys with lead based paint. Another cut at 9th grade, those go to train to do medial technical jobs like motor pool and taxi driving and other stuff like that that endanger your life a little more. Another cut at 12th grade for the ones to run the factories and manage the people working, and the rest, the cream of the crop, go to college to get good paying jobs.

Whenever you figure out how to solve that system here, you can run the country, until then, just sit back and watch our country go to crap and keep drinking the coolaid they are giving you!

E

We've discussed these issues here before. I'm all for an apprentice type system for those not wanting to go to college, or even those who aren't academically ready. I'm most familiar with the education system in Germany and they have had this type of program for a long, long time. Their manufacturing base is super strong, and their education system ranks above us in all ways. Plus their economy is doing much better than us as well.

I agree with your standardized test scenario, and I've brought that point up myself here. No child left behind is a failure and was from day one.

Well, yeah. He did negotiate the bill and agreed to it, however the plan was W.'s and a modified version of the program he instituted in TX.

Well, bless your heart.

I agree with you 100% on this issue! It is a good "idea", but not feasable in the real world. NCLB just means no child moves forward in real life.

E

Just injecting a minor tweak here about the "get a bit more realistic" part of your intelligent post.. The teachers are the most realistic about the potential of their students. The idea that almost all children can/should be mainstreamed is not to promote false promises or fool children into believing in fairy tales about becoming doctors...it is to integrate those previously shunned from "normalcy" in school and society and to get the weakest among us to maximize their individual potential. In the loooong run, it saves all of us money if kids with severe impediments in life do not have to be institutionalized, if they can learn to take basic care of themselves, learn to read some, maybe more than some, learn a set of life skills, hopefully hold down a job eventually and be much more self sufficient.

Today there are autistic adults with advanced degrees doing research. When I was in elementary schools in the late 50's-early to mid 60's they would have had helmets on their heads and been kept fed and clean.

The science of educating people is a world apart from folks crying about teachers getting paid too much, not working hard, etc. Most of the problems in classrooms today is that these new populations in each classroom come with mandates but no funding and require specialists in many cases. In McBryde's case it is idiotically severe. I can't believe he has half a classroom of special ed kids!

Oh, and for those still not convinced that most professional teachers work much more than you think, did you ever have to meet with any teachers because junior was a frigging illiterate obstinant sh*thead in class? Or maybe you wanted to see how he could do better in school? What time were these meetings held? I'll bet anyone it was before or after school was in session...AKA Personal Time! off the clock! But your moronic offspring mattered enough. How many people you helping professionally off the clock, gratis???

Thought so.

Frankj - My princess went through an obstinate phase last year. She doesn't have a "hurry up" bone in her body to begin with, but this year she hit a spell where NOTHING... and I do mean NOTHING was being completed in class. Her AMAZING teacher asked if she could stay after school to finish her work.... EVERY DAY, until she decided it was easier to finish in class. This woman sat in that classroom with my girl till after 5pm some nights. She routinely takes her lunch back to the classroom to be with kiddos who need to finish work at lunch or who need extra help. This is not an uncommon occurrence at our school. Our teachers are phenomenal.

Me too...

The teachers in the district where we live have been great too. Luckily, so far, my kids are doing fairly well. My youngest needs more attention than my oldest, but whenever there is a chance for extra attention, classes, afterschool attention, gifted and talented classes, summer school, gifted and talented summer school, we take advantage of it, always.

1st grade Nun hit me in the face making my nose bleed and made me stand there while i bled out. Whole class witnessed it and she lied and said no she didnt do such thing.......She died and now rests in hell as Devils slave!!!!

education | US Politics
Some devastating factoids on U.S. education from the good folks over at Reason (I have gleaned some numbers from an article well worth reading in whole):

1. According to Department of Education statistics, in 2007-2008 (the latest year available), full-time public school teachers across the country made an average of $53,230 in “total school-year and summer earned income.” That compares favorably to the $39,690 that private school teachers pulled down.

2. According to EducationNext, government employer contribute the equivalent of 14.6 percent of salary to retirement benefits for public school teachers. That compares to 10.4 for private-sector professionals.

3. In 1960-61, public schools spent $2,769 per student, a figure that now totals over $10,000 in real, inflation-adjusted dollars.

4. In 1960, the student-teacher ratio in public schools was 25.8; it’s now at a historic low of 15.

5. In 2007, the percentage of parents with children in assigned public schools who were “very satisfied” with the institution was 52 percent. For parents whose children attended public schools of choice, that figure rose to 62 percent. Parents sending their children to private schools, whether religious or non-sectarian, were “very satisfied” 79 percent of the time.

6. Despite all the extra resources devoted to public school teachers and students, student achievement has been absolutely flat over the past 40 years.

None of this should be surprising given the lack of productivity and efficiency inherent in government monopolies. As the New America Foundation notes:

The U.S. ranked 68th (out of 139 countries) in terms of wastefulness of government spending in the 2010-11 World Economic Forum report on global competitiveness. Experts put our public-sector productivity about 10 years behind that of the rest of our workforce. If public workers could halve that gap, the annual savings would ring in at $100 billion to $300 billion, according to a new study by the McKinsey Global Institute. That would mean the equivalent of a recurring stimulus package every three to eight years

Never went to Catholic schools, (Born Again Christian schools) but in first grade public school a teacher got mad, hit her yard stick on my desk really hard because she was pissed, I pretended it hit my hand, no more pissed off teacher. First grade. I remember that clearly. I know many of you will interpret that in a negative way, so be it. ;)

I also remember her crying obsessively over Charlotte's Webb when the spider died. She said she did that every time she read the book, in class. I think she was a little unstable. ;) Watertown Connecticut, 1973.

see post #69

for some reason I think you own a car dealership (or more). How many accumulated hours per day do the sales people work actually selling cars? If they get two or three "ups" a day each it might add up to a half day of work each day, or 150 days working even if they are on location 300 days. teachers have "ups" constantly every hour at work every day and do all the pre and post work during unpaid overtime...way way beyond 180 days. The pay ends up prorated much closer to what critics like yourself would like to see.

teachers "are required to work 180 days per year". All the extra time ain't spent talking about boobies or scanning the internet (I am not above those vices). Bus duty, playground break duty, extra help sessions, parent meetings, in-service training and on and on.

Somhow someone was able to teach you to think critically, but you were probably inherently easy to teach. Today is a different challenge, born out by the small sampling in this very thread.

Go back and read closer and you will see how the US stats are unfairly skewed. Most children in many other countries are simply "left behind". Figures lie and this is a classic example.

Boo Hoo is a huge part of the problem, not the solution.

Dude - my daughter goes to a PRIVATE school, and we have 25 kids per teacher. WHERE in the U.S. are they finding a PUBLIC school with only 15?????

If you cut out the teachers, who are you intending to replace them with? Are the kids supposed to teach themselves? Most of the parents can't be bothered with checking homework, so THEY arent' going to do it. Do you think that replacing one set of teachers with a different set will solve the problem? That's unlikely. The new teachers will be just as hogtied with red tape as the old ones. Seriously - you almost need a law degree to write a lesson plan, these days. The teachers don't choose the district curriculum - that comes from higher up. They have (in public schools) limited input on the subject, but beyond that, they have to find a way to plan within some pretty severe limitations. They are given 30-40 students of varying ability levels and usually NO at-home discipline, and told that they are ALL supposed to perform at the SAME level - from SPED to G & T. In "the good old days," those G&T kids were moved up and the SPED kids were not mainstreamed into regular classrooms. They were, as they still are in these other countries you're referring to - LEFT BEHIND. We can't do that. Someone would find it unfair and sue the district. Every parent expects their child to bring home straight "A"s, but none of them want their child to have to EARN them, especially if it means that THEY have to get involved and do a little parenting.
When the rubber meets the road, a child's education is his/her PARENTS' responsibility. The schools are a TOOL available for them to use. A hammer isn't going to build a fence all by itself - YOU have to put some effort into it, and when the fence looks like crap, removing all the hammers from Home Depot isn't going to fix it.

I consider this scenario routine. Above and beyond the 180 days required by law...and happening every single day in almost every single class in almost every single school because teachers know their kids better than the parents do. They should, they spend more time with them than the parents do from the age of 6 til 17 or so. If your kids turn out to be fine adults, teachers likely had as much or more to do with that than we did as parents.

I love hearing stories like yours. I know my wife (senior speech and langauge pathologist elementary school level) and daughter (high school english teacher) go in early and stay late every day to make sure that they have exhausted every possible method to get these fuggers what they need. I'm not even talking about what I see at home in the hours of preparation spent honing their craft. Unlike most jobs, ya can't wake up and just show up to deal with what gets shoved in front of you. The classroom time is what people consider work for pay time, but evidently many people do not understand what goes into being successful while "on the clock".

Possibly the toughest, most important and most thankless chore in the work world. Like McBryde said, it ain't for the money, and it sure ain't for the appreciation.

I admire your dedication ,really..

But being a succeesful educator is no different than being a success in any other business,It all requires hard work. Appreciation is a myth .You speak of affirmation and adulation neither of which count for much,sadly.

(yes, I'm quoting myself)
That being said, most private schools (ours especially) and most teachers at ANY school, bend over backward to help a struggling student succeed. You wouldn't BELIEVE how many angles they'll attack a problem from, just because of what's been discovered about different learning styles in recent years. However, if the student in a private school simply can't perform at grade level, the grade level is NOT adjusted to accommodate them, and if the parent is unhappy about that, then they can go to public school and threaten to sue them if THEY don't change their expectations to jive with junior's abilities. The teachers did not create this situation, but they ARE trapped within it, and do the best they can with the circumstances they are dealt. Unfortunately, these kids are in for a rude awakening when they get out into the real wold and find out that the world could give a rat's patoot whether or not it's "fair" that they can't perform as well as their coworkers.

Now it makes sense. Surely you are keenly aware that the schools you attended were not encumbered by those inconvenient standards set by government for public schools. And students who were difficult to educate in your school probably weren't born with disabilities, they were likely brats. 40 kids with one lesson plan!!!...the teachers I know could have taught your class in half the time and headed for the beach after lunch!

My wife spends more time at home completing paperwork required by legislation than she spends in school being phenomenal. Your teachers did not have to deal with that so teaching seems like a breeze to you. She couldn't help any kids if she did that work during the school day. Your teachers spent those hours antiquing. My friends that attended private school (other than boarding schools) had less hours per day and less days per year than their public school counterparts. Every teacher I know would love to be working for public schools under private school demands!

Also - we are usually out of school a week before our district schools, because we don't have as many planning or in-service days during the year. Our district is notorious for admin days - then the teachers have to find a way to catch up. Fun for them...

HEAR, HEAR!!

I am not an educator (professionally at least) and do not work in education, no need to admire me. But I agree with your post. I'm just trying to show how hard most of these dedicated, beseiged people really do work but even working hard does not mean they are good at it Sales people are easily ranked by results (I have spent most of my adult work life in sales btw) but teachers might be spectacular any given year with woeful test scores on the part of their charges as a result. Standardized testing encourages "teaching to the test" which should not be confused with really teaching. That's what's sad. And that's what caused the horrors the OP addressed.

You and I operate in a results oriented world but success in teaching is a much too complicated deal to reduce to statistics as a way of gauging success. Is Rick Carlisle suddenly a great head coach now that the Mavs are champs? Or did he get a brilliant class to teach after many years of morons? And reducing it to $52K for 180 days is simplistic and misleading.

Currently there is no accurate and fair way to rate individual teachers, but what we do have is ongoing observation and evaluation, often done by surprise visits to classrooms. I suppose it would be of utmost priority to get the finest observers handling this...but every district decides who these folks are. Anyone unhappy with their local schools should start getting involved at this point in the process.

I appreciate the worthy battle. More Americans need to be watching what goes on in the arena in which their children spend a third of each day.

Frank...off to bed.

I went to New England (Rhode Island) public schools. I got a very good education and we usually had 25+ kids in our classes. We had good teachers who held us accountable and graded us accordingly.

I was an honor student until 11th grade, when I quit caring and effed off. I failed all but 2 classes that year.

The principal called me in and told me he'd allow me to advance to 12th grade, because I had enough credits to do so, but I'd have to take Junior and Senior English and Math. That sucked balls, and the rest of my class was getting out earlier than me, but I did what I had to do.

And back then a D was NOT a passing grade. 70 or above or you repeated the class, no exceptions.