America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 10 years ago by bloody spaniard. 243 replies replies.
5 Pages<12345>
Edward Snowden - Patriot or Traitor?
Sungodv Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 12-18-2004
Posts: 24
Patriot.
ZRX1200 Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
http://www.peakprosperity.com/podcast/82113/ron-paul-rejecting-authoritarian-government-our-greatest-priority
Burner02 Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
Sungodv wrote:
Patriot.



Shame on you
Burner02 Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
Heard this P.M. the he will probably defect to China. Would this make him a patriot? Me think not!


Hell, if he hangs around a week or two he will be promoted to HMFIC of NSA.


BigGrin
ZRX1200 Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,661
~ ^ ~ ( * ¿ * ) ~ ^ ~












Anxious











Burner02 Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
~ ^ ~ ( * ¿ * ) ~ ^ ~








ThumpUp
8trackdisco Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,103
Burner02 wrote:
Heard this P.M. the he will probably defect to China. Would this make him a patriot? Me think not!

BigGrin


As inane as it sounds, he'll probably have more freedom in China.

We don't live in the same America lived in 30 years ago.
frankj1 Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,252
8trackdisco wrote:
As inane as it sounds, he'll probably have more freedom in China.

We don't live in the same America lived in 30 years ago.

well, it sounds inane to me.

We still don't live in China. Also, how can someone feel mushy about the antics of our government 30 years (or so) ago? It should not be as simple as allowing the party in charge (no matter how much we agree with their policies) to behave as that administration did if said party is jeopardizing the system that protects us from runaway government power. I do not pine for a benevolent dictator. I do not condone my candidate to run roughshod over the opposition. We all need protection from the power, not just when it is the opposition.

And I sure don't miss a band of renegades setting up camp in the WHITE HOUSE basement, bypassing Congress, defying the law of the land and checks and balances, just because they thought they were more right than the entire system. Selling arms to Iran (AND Iraq!) in defiance of Congress to raise money for a coup in S America (OK, the Nicaraguan cigars did improve)? A revered President reduced to testifying "I don't recall" vermin in my basement doing the above? Folks thinking Ollie North was a hero too? Setting a precedent that still exists today? You miss them good ol' days?

Not me. Now we get to relive them with every new administration. Not just left. Not just right.

Out of respect for the many posts I have read from you that made me think (or laugh), I am going to assume you picked 30 years ago arbitrarily. If so, disregard the above.
rfenst Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,431
He violated security and leaked. No mention thus far of any attempts by him to address his concern in any other way.

The legislature has known or voted for this. The proper representatives have been advised and have known- and been able to keep their mouths shut. the warrants have been alleged to approved by the judiciary.

If the secret legislative and judicial oversight have been ongoing since Bush spoke on it, no one should be surprised in any way at all. In fact, anyone who doesn't presume the government has been spying on Americans for many, many decades, if not longer- is naivete and foolish. Think about Mccarthy And Hoover!

This guy is a traitor to me. His actions are not appropriate civil disobedience for one sworn to top secrecy. The typical civil disobedient is a John Q. Public. FCKU this guy and maximize the penalty. Hang him high as an example of what those sworn to government secrecy are obliged to do. Like HD said, he is a "dead man walking".

Now, there certainly is the issue of whether our rights are being violated. Not to me if legislature approved and had oversight and courts participated in true due process for the warrants, whether we like it or not. Warrants are never publicly published before the fact of seizure or arrest. This does not appear to differ. The 4th protects against UNREASONABLE search and seizure, not all search and seizure.

Personally, I am not surprised or bothered by this as long as there has been both legislative and judicial oversight. If the secret warrants are truly the "least restrictive means" of obtaining info covertly, then I feel this is not unlawful per se. The next step will be a lawsuit by the ACLU and the like- to get the matter before SCOTUS, which will rule on this. Whatever they opine will become the "black letter" law for all to abide by.

Obviously, all of this is open for discussion and debate. YMMV...



rfenst Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,431
8trackdisco wrote:
As inane as it sounds, he'll probably have more freedom in China.

We don't live in the same America lived in 30 years ago.


He and anyone else are free to emigrate there if they agree with the concept they will be better off there. They can simply go ahead. It is their right.
cacman Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
rfenst wrote:
The legislature has known or voted for this. The proper representatives have been advised and have known- and been able to keep their mouths shut. the warrants have been alleged to approved by the judiciary.

In basic terms, these are these are the same people that voted for new healthcare laws that they themselves don't have to follow... right?
8trackdisco Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,103
frankj1 wrote:
well, it sounds inane to me.

We still don't live in China. Also, how can someone feel mushy about the antics of our government 30 years (or so) ago? It should not be as simple as allowing the party in charge (no matter how much we agree with their policies) to behave as that administration did if said party is jeopardizing the system that protects us from runaway government power. I do not pine for a benevolent dictator. I do not condone my candidate to run roughshod over the opposition. We all need protection from the power, not just when it is the opposition.

And I sure don't miss a band of renegades setting up camp in the WHITE HOUSE basement, bypassing Congress, defying the law of the land and checks and balances, just because they thought they were more right than the entire system. Selling arms to Iran (AND Iraq!) in defiance of Congress to raise money for a coup in S America (OK, the Nicaraguan cigars did improve)? A revered President reduced to testifying "I don't recall" vermin in my basement doing the above? Folks thinking Ollie North was a hero too? Setting a precedent that still exists today? You miss them good ol' days?

Not me. Now we get to relive them with every new administration. Not just left. Not just right.

Out of respect for the many posts I have read from you that made me think (or laugh), I am going to assume you picked 30 years ago arbitrarily. If so, disregard the above.


I picked 30 because 40 years ago would have put us at Watergate- so that would have been problematic. 30 years ago, it was Morning in Reagan's America. The feeling was there was a shiny house on the hill.

The IRS, CIA & FBI were digging through garbage and following people around. But there was no NSA, collection data sites, and people and computers sifting through our lives.

You are right about it being a both sides of the aisle. The writing is on the wall. Probably has been for decades. But when a Democrat touting transparency is deepening the dive into the mire, and a crying, left wing, liberal nut like Diane Feinstein is promoting more curtailing of people's rights, it is game over, man..... Game over.
dpnewell Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
So, Robert, I guess you'd have no problem, if tomorrow, our government decided to round up a ground of people (Jew, Christian, Tea-Party, etc., you fill in the blank), as long as...

"The legislature has known or voted for this. The proper representatives have been advised .... the warrants have been .... approved by the judiciary."
tailgater Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
The emperor has no clothes.

Is it really being a "traitor" to disclose WHAT the government is doing?
We are not in danger from the leaked information. No other entity has gained anything that could be used against us.

This information was leaked to expose the reality taking place behind closed doors.

Maybe he could be charged legally for breaking confidentiality, but traitor?
Spare me the drama.

teedubbya Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
dpnewell wrote:
So, Robert, I guess you'd have no problem, if tomorrow, our government decided to round up a ground of people (Jew, Christian, Tea-Party, etc., you fill in the blank), as long as...

"The legislature has known or voted for this. The proper representatives have been advised .... the warrants have been .... approved by the judiciary."


what a silly little drama queen thing to say. pityful. I think Robert was saying we have a system of checks and balances in place to safeguard us. They were all triggered. I disagree with the decision, but it's not nazi germany and if you think it is remotely like that then you denigrate what happened there.

If you truly beleive that then there is no choice but armed revolution...... I disagree with your assessment.
HockeyDad Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
dpnewell wrote:
So, Robert, I guess you'd have no problem, if tomorrow, our government decided to round up a ground of people (Jew, Christian, Tea-Party, etc., you fill in the blank), as long as...

"The legislature has known or voted for this. The proper representatives have been advised .... the warrants have been .... approved by the judiciary."



We already have the FEMA camps ready to go.
HockeyDad Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
teedubbya wrote:
If you truly believe that then there is no choice but armed revolution...... I disagree with your assessment.



That is ridiculous. Americans will voluntarily march into the FEMA camps for their own protection before considering launching an armed revolution.
teedubbya Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
tailgater wrote:
The emperor has no clothes.

Is it really being a "traitor" to disclose WHAT the government is doing?
We are not in danger from the leaked information. No other entity has gained anything that could be used against us.

This information was leaked to expose the reality taking place behind closed doors.

Maybe he could be charged legally for breaking confidentiality, but traitor?
Spare me the drama.



I tend to agree depending on what he signed with the government. If someone had leaked enigma would they be a traitor. we are treating things like a perpetual war so if you tip off the enemy what is it?

Personally I am not comfortable with the "war" on terrorism being treated like an open ended war. It's as if we plan on spending the rest of our days at war. We have always had enemies but haven't always had to be in a state of war. I think it is being used as a reason for broad powers and as a marketing/political trick by both parties. It needs to change.
teedubbya Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
HockeyDad wrote:
That is ridiculous. Americans will voluntarily march into the FEMA camps for their own protection before considering launching an armed revolution.



HD I have a serious question for you.


are you wearing shorts in your avatar?
DrafterX Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
I thought Obama said we won the war on terror.... Think Think
teedubbya Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
DrafterX wrote:
I thought Obama said we won the war on terror.... Think Think


I think it was mission accomplished.
DrafterX Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
d'oh!
I forgot terror and terrorism were two different things... d'oh!
DadZilla3 Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 01-17-2009
Posts: 4,633
HockeyDad wrote:
That is ridiculous. Americans will voluntarily march into the FEMA camps for their own protection before considering launching an armed revolution.

Most of the big cities in America have neighborhoods that are pretty much FEMA camps already.
teedubbya Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
well to be fair Freddy Kruger was NOT a terrorist.
teedubbya Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Or was he?
Taps86 Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2013
Posts: 4,691
Whats different now than in 2005 when this was leaked as well???
teedubbya Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
DadZilla3 wrote:
Most of the big cities in America have neighborhoods that are pretty much FEMA camps already.


this is true. the ghettos would be easy to set up then drafter could sing his song
teedubbya Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Taps86 wrote:
Whats different now than in 2005 when this was leaked as well???



nothing. assuming the original leak was from someone with a security clearance rather than discovered through some other means.
Taps86 Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2013
Posts: 4,691
Maybe instead of all the REPEAL OBAMACARE! We will start seeing REPEAL PATRIOT ACT....
DrafterX Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
ya... in da ghetto... Sad
HockeyDad Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
DadZilla3 wrote:
Most of the big cities in America have neighborhoods that are pretty much FEMA camps already.



Boston already proved that.
DrafterX Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
teedubbya wrote:
well to be fair Freddy Kruger was NOT a terrorist.



was he Muslim..?? Huh
Taps86 Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2013
Posts: 4,691
teedubbya wrote:
nothing. assuming the original leak was from someone with a security clearance rather than discovered through some other means.


New York Times & Washington Post ran with a story in 2005. I was furious then and and still am. The only reason this is what it is now, is because the GOP is pulling at every string possible to damage the other party....

NYT Report is here http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


Quote:
The law governing clandestine surveillance in the United States, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, prohibits conducting electronic surveillance not authorized by statute. A government agent can try to avoid prosecution if he can show he was "engaged in the course of his official duties and the electronic surveillance was authorized by and conducted pursuant to a search warrant or court order of a court of competent jurisdiction," according to the law.

"This is as shocking a revelation as we have ever seen from the Bush administration," said Martin, who has been sharply critical of the administration's surveillance and detention policies. "It is, I believe, the first time a president has authorized government agencies to violate a specific criminal prohibition and eavesdrop on Americans."

Caroline Fredrickson, director of the Washington legislative office of the American Civil Liberties Union, said she is "dismayed" by the report.

"It's clear that the administration has been very willing to sacrifice civil liberties in its effort to exercise its authority on terrorism, to the extent that it authorizes criminal activity," Fredrickson said.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/16/AR2005121600021.html


Quote:
President Bush said yesterday that he secretly ordered the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans with suspected ties to terrorists because it was "critical to saving American lives" and "consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution."

Bush said the program has been reviewed regularly by the nation's top legal authorities and targets only those people with "a clear link to these terrorist networks." Noting the failures to detect hijackers already in the country before the strikes on New York and Washington, Bush said the NSA's domestic spying since then has helped thwart other attacks.

In his statement, delivered during a live and unusually long radio address, the president assailed the news media for disclosing the eavesdropping program, and rebuked Senate Democrats for blocking renewal of the USA Patriot Act, which gave the FBI greater surveillance power after Sept. 11, 2001, and which expires Dec. 31.

"The terrorist threat to our country will not expire in two weeks," said Bush, calling a filibuster by Democratic senators opposed to the Patriot Act "irresponsible."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/17/AR2005121700456.html
teedubbya Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Taps86 wrote:
New York Times & Washington Post ran with a story in 2005. I was furious then and and still am. The only reason this is what it is now, is because the GOP is pulling at every string possible to damage the other party....

NYT Report is here http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/16/AR2005121600021.html




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/17/AR2005121700456.html




The DEMS went at the GOP too. It's the same song different day.
HockeyDad Offline
#85 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
teedubbya wrote:
The DEMS went at the GOP too. It's the same song different day.



The difference is "Hope & Change".
teedubbya Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
HockeyDad wrote:
The difference is "Hope & Change".


that and there is a little black peppah in the recipe that bothers some folks sense of taste
HockeyDad Offline
#87 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,192
teedubbya wrote:
that and there is a little black peppah in the recipe that bothers some folks sense of taste



So you're saying people don't like being spied on by a black president but it is fine from a white president? You gonna go with that?

victor809 Offline
#88 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
tailgater wrote:
The emperor has no clothes.

Is it really being a "traitor" to disclose WHAT the government is doing?
We are not in danger from the leaked information. No other entity has gained anything that could be used against us.

This information was leaked to expose the reality taking place behind closed doors.

Maybe he could be charged legally for breaking confidentiality, but traitor?
Spare me the drama.



If the gov't doesn't have anything to hide, then they shouldn't have a problem with this...

am i right? :)
teedubbya Offline
#89 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
HockeyDad wrote:
So you're saying people don't like being spied on by a black president but it is fine from a white president? You gonna go with that?




Yes.
Taps86 Offline
#90 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2013
Posts: 4,691
teedubbya wrote:
The DEMS went at the GOP too. It's the same song different day.


No disputing that. It's the same ol song and dance. Instead of the far left being up in arms, You got the Far Right.
DrafterX Offline
#91 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
Hey there all you middle men
Throw away your fancy clothes
And while you're out sittin' on a fence
So get off your ass and come down here
Cause rock 'n' roll ain't no riddle man
To me it makes good good sense
Good sense yeah let's go.... Whistle Whistle

Taps86 Offline
#92 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2013
Posts: 4,691
And the rivers shall open for the righteous...
And the rivers shall open for the righteous...
And the rivers shall open for the righteous someday...

I was walking with my brother,

And he wondered, oh how I am.
Said what I believe in my soul
Ain't what I see with my eyes,
And there's no turning back this time.

I am a patriot, and I love my country,
Because my country is all I know.
Wanna be with my family,
People who understand me.
I got no place else to go.

I was walking with my girlfriend.
She looked so fine, I said
"Baby, what's on your mind?"
Said I want to run like the lions
Released from their cages...
Released from the rages
Burning in my soul tonight.

I am a patriot, and I love my country,
Because my country is all I know.

And I ain't no communist,
And I ain't no socialist,
And I ain't no capitalist,
And I ain't no imperialist,
And I ain't no democrat,
Sure ain't no **** republican either,
I only know one party,
And that is freedom.
I am...I am...I am...

I am a patriot, and I love my country,
Because my country is all I know.

And the rivers shall open for the righteous,
And the rivers shall open for the righteous,
And the rivers shall open for the righteous someday...
Someday...someday...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyc8HVMKXNg
DrafterX Offline
#93 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
Mellow
Taps86 Offline
#94 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2013
Posts: 4,691
DrafterX wrote:
Mellow


I got a better one. Some times people question what party I really associate myself with. I used to be Far Right Conservative. Nowadays I find myself being an Independent Conservative.



Here's to the judges of William Renhquist
Who wear the robe of honor in there phony legal 4
And Justice is a stranger when the partisans report
When the court elected the president it was the begining of this war
Ohhh here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
William Renhquist find yourself another country
To be part of

And here's to the government of ****** Cheney
With criminals posing as advisors to the crown
And they hope that no one sees the sites and that no one hears the sounds
'Cause the speeches of our president are the ravings of a clown
Ohhh here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
****** Cheney find yourself another country
To be part of

And here's to the churches of Jerry Falwell
well the cross once made of silver and now it's caked with rust
And the sunday morning service pand in to the fear of men in love
And heaven only knows in which god they can trust
Ohhh here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
Jerry Falwell find yourself another country
To be part of

And here's to the laws of John Ashcroft
Congress will pass an act in the panic of the day
And the Constitution is drowning in an ocean of decay
And freedom of speech is dangerous I've even heard them say
Ohhh here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
John Ashcroft find yourself another country
To be part of

And here's to the businessman of George W.
Who want to change the focus from Halliburton and Enron
And their profits like blood money spilling out on the White House lawn
To keep their hold on power they're using terror as a con
while the bombs they fall on children.. don't care which side that they're on
Ohhh here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
George W find yourself another country
To be part of
Ohhh here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
George W find yourself another country
To be part of




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgUPI45OTI
DrafterX Offline
#95 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
those names can easily be replaced.... nice template... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#96 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Tell me true, tell me why, was Jesus crucified
Is it for this that Daddy died?
Was it for you? Was it me?
Did I watch too much T.V.?
Is that a hint of accusation in your eyes?
If it wasn't for the nips
Being so good at building ships
The yards would still be open on the clyde.
And it can't be much fun for them
Beneath the rising sun
With all their kids committing suicide.
What have we done, Maggie what have we done?
What have we done to England?
Should we shout, should we scream
"What happened to the post war dream?"
Oh Maggie, Maggie what have we done?
DrafterX Offline
#97 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
poor Maggie... Sad
DrafterX Offline
#98 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,583
Think
are we allowed to say Nips..?? Huh
teedubbya Offline
#99 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Brezhnev took Afghanistan.
Begin took Beirut.
Galtieri took the Union Jack.
And Maggie, over lunch one day,
Took a cruiser with all hands.
Apparently, to make him give it back.
tailgater Offline
#100 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Using my Way-Back machine, I recall a conversation with our pal Adroomi.
The issue was Bush listening to phone calls without warrant.

This was when 9/11 was still fresh and the fear of terror cells in the USA was a new topic at the water cooler.
At the time, I was in favor of the phone tapping. By all accounts, it was aimed at those who associated with known terrorists and at American citizens who frequently dealt with suspect regions (whether by travel or correspondence).

Adroomi claimed (he was a renowned liar of epic proportions) that he fit the profile since he was such a world traveler. I suggested that this was a minor inconvenience considering the stakes. We debated this in our usual friendly banter style I'm sure.

In any event, the new law under Bush had a purpose that didn't appear to extend (by intent) to encompass our major communications corporations.
People figured that if they called uncle Akmed or aunti zetuni (oops) in Saudi Arabia that they might not be speaking in private.

But nobody expected it to grow exponentially in scope.
And Obama literally promised that he would not engage in these tactics.

Yet here we are.
And nobody knew for sure this was happening until it was leaked.

How is this even remotely related to being a traitor?
Users browsing this topic
Guest
5 Pages<12345>