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Last post 2 years ago by Speyside. 125 replies replies.
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tailgater Offline
#101 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
HockeyDad wrote:
George Floyd should still be alive today. And while nothing will bring him back or heal the unthinkable pain his killing caused his family and Black Americans everywhere, today’s verdict offers a retribution on toxic masculinity and a ray of light in the fight for racial justice.



I didn't follow this as closely as many. But I think the right verdict was handed down based on what I have seen and read.

I don't, however, see this as a racial justice issue. This was one cop who ignored protocol after a man's pulse stopped. That makes him a bad cop and now a murderer. But it doesn't make him a racist.

frankj1 Offline
#102 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
tailgater wrote:
I didn't follow this as closely as many. But I think the right verdict was handed down based on what I have seen and read.

I don't, however, see this as a racial justice issue. This was one cop who ignored protocol after a man's pulse stopped. That makes him a bad cop and now a murderer. But it doesn't make him a racist.


they didn't pursue "hate crimes" when he was charged...not to start a debate on hate crimes, but they didn't see it as a factor in this case based on evidence.

ZRX1200 Offline
#103 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,615
Yeah there’s a lot of happy unicorn fart n puppy dogs type murders.
tailgater Offline
#104 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
they didn't pursue "hate crimes" when he was charged...not to start a debate on hate crimes, but they didn't see it as a factor in this case based on evidence.



You are correct, but that's not my point.

This Chauvin cop deserves to be punished.
George Floyd didn't deserve to be dead.
But the two things have nothing to do with race.

Enter BLM.

Now they are the respective poster children.

frankj1 Offline
#105 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
I'm not so sure that even if this specific crime of Chauvin's wasn't specifically due to Chauvin specifically hating Floyd's race, that conditions and conditioning didn't play any part in him being able to let himself do this hideous act.

Racism is not always about furious active hatred...and BLM may have been born of a few hundred years of the subtle as well as the few hundred years of the violent actions against Blacks.
They rose from something that they did not create.

This does not excuse any violence or criminal activity attributed to their members, and though it will fall on deaf ears, the facts are that though there were several dozens of violent crimes, arson, looting, etc, in what started as peaceful protests in the recent turbulent year or so, that is out of a few thousand actual protests that occurred across the country in which BLM was involved.
Doesn't really seem like a coordinated on purpose-pattern of criminal protest as much as disgusting crimes of opportunity by low life.

And though you and I may agree that this one might not be about a man of racial hate (we don't know him) wearing a blue uniform, if I'm a member of the victim's race it would be hard for you to convince me that this wasn't yet another in a series...
HockeyDad Offline
#106 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,135
Frank condones BLM orchestrated violence.
frankj1 Offline
#107 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
yawning and laughing.
Well done.
HockeyDad Offline
#108 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,135
I felt you needed a pity post.
Speyside Offline
#109 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Meh, it's over, move on.
frankj1 Offline
#110 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
HockeyDad wrote:
I felt you needed a pity post.

well, I am pitiful.
so thanks for a taste of my own medicine...HA!
Krazeehorse Offline
#111 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
Maybe this is setting up an appeal. Seems a juror lied about his participation in any protests. His photo is on social media at the MLK demonstration in DC wearing a Get your knees off our necks t-shirt.
Just the expense of a do-over makes me want this guy to be punished. I suppose some would argue another trial is inevitable.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9539447/Chauvin-juror-defends-participation-Washington-protest.html
RayR Offline
#112 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,893
A BLM Marxist plant on the jury. How could something like this happen. This is Amerika?RollEyes
rfenst Offline
#113 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,335
Krazeehorse wrote:
Maybe this is setting up an appeal. Seems a juror lied about his participation in any protests. His photo is on social media at the MLK demonstration in DC wearing a Get your knees off our necks t-shirt.
Just the expense of a do-over makes me want this guy to be punished. I suppose some would argue another trial is inevitable.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9539447/Chauvin-juror-defends-participation-Washington-protest.html

Off the cuff, I would expect that the lie would have to be material and that the subject matter lied about affected the jury's final decision.

But, "Federal Rule of Evidence 606(b) bar[s] the testimony of a juror regarding statements made during deliberations for the purpose of showing alleged dishonesty by a prospective juror during jury selection."

There have to be some exceptions to the Rule, no?...

But, the ability to challenge a lost verdict has to stop at some well defined point.
Krazeehorse Offline
#114 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
Well there's movement in that direction.
Derek Chauvin files for new trial in death of George Floyd - Fox News
https://apple.news/A3ZA9Tv9_QJiEe1yHqPuRTA
Speyside Offline
#115 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Given the facts as we know them now, a new trial seems appropriate. I do think he is guilty, but I absolutely know has an absolute right to a fair trial.
frankj1 Offline
#116 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
if it qualifies, by all means start up again.
He'd probably be found guilty a dozen times anyway...maybe not all 3 charges though.
Pretty much the debate sounded like it was if all criteria was met on each charge, not if he was innocent.
teedubbya Offline
#117 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I think Floyd was just naughty and prolly deserved it.
rfenst Offline
#118 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,335
Speyside wrote:
Given the facts as we know them now, a new trial seems appropriate. I do think he is guilty, but I absolutely know has an absolute right to a fair trial.

What, of significance, was not fair about his trial?
teedubbya Offline
#119 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
He was just doing his job and Floyd’s neck got in the way.
Speyside Offline
#120 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
The fact that the prosecution withheld what seems to be exculpatory evidence until after the jury went into deliberation. Yes, I know that is not part of this appeal, but it will I think eventually cause a mistrial. There was a blood toxicity report that showed CO2 was in George Floyd's blood. I do not think the outcome would be any different if this had been presented, but I am sure that evidence was withheld.
HockeyDad Offline
#121 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,135
Let’s give him a new trial.

Opening argument: You’re guilty.

Jury verdict: Guilty.

There...done.

He’s not getting a fair trial and he needs to go down. BLM burned many cities during mostly peaceful protests and we don’t need a repeat of that.

During a peaceful protest last summer there were National Guard in my city. MY CITY. The National Guard should only be in my city for brushfires and earthquakes.
bgz Offline
#122 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Pretty much boils down to this... if you sit on a guys neck for 10 minutes and he dies... then you killed him.

It really is that simple.
rfenst Offline
#123 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,335
Speyside wrote:
The fact that the prosecution withheld what seems to be exculpatory evidence until after the jury went into deliberation. Yes, I know that is not part of this appeal, but it will I think eventually cause a mistrial. There was a blood toxicity report that showed CO2 was in George Floyd's blood. I do not think the outcome would be any different if this had been presented, but I am sure that evidence was withheld.

Is this what you are referring to...?

Judge warns of mistrial in Chauvin case if prosecution witness even 'hints' at 'newly discovered evidence'

The Hill

The judge in the murder trial of Derek Chauvin on Thursday rejected a request by the prosecution to enter newly discovered evidence that would have contained information about George Floyd’s carbon monoxide levels during his arrest, warning of a mistrial if the results were mentioned by their rebuttal witness before the jury.

Judge Peter Cahill ruled against the admission of evidence, saying it was unfair to the defense.

Cahill said the prosecution had an opportunity earlier to provide the evidence since it knew Fowler was raising the issue of carbon monoxide. He said allowing it now would prejudice the jury.

"It's untimely to give the notice and it prejudiced the defense by the late disclosure, even if it's not due to bad faith but the late disclosure has prejudiced the defense, it's not going to be allowed," Cahill said.

Prosecutor Jerry Blackwell had told the court that the state had just received blood gas evidence from Hennepin County Medical Examiner Andrew Baker, who performed Floyd's autopsy, that contained readings for the carbon monoxide content in his blood on the day he was arrested.

The evidence, Blackwell said, was discovered after a former chief medical examiner called by the defense as an expert witness speculated in court that Floyd could have been exposed to carbon monoxide when he was pressed to the ground under Chauvin’s knee near a squad car last May.

Though the witness, David Fowler, said he had no knowledge of whether Floyd’s blood had even been tested for carbon monoxide, he pointed to potential carbon monoxide poisoning when listing each of the factors he felt played a role in his death.

Blackwell grilled Fowler, the defense’s sole witness who took the stand on Wednesday, over the statements during cross-examination later that day.

“You agree as an expert witness that you shouldn't jump to conclusions? That is, you should reach fair conclusions based upon a careful considered analysis?” Blackwell asked. Fowler agreed.

“Do you agree that you shouldn't come at this in a way that's biased? You agree with that, don't you? You shouldn't cherry-pick facts? You shouldn't try to confuse the jury?” Blackwell continued.

The tense back and forth comes as the prosecution has pointed to Chauvin’s use of force against Floyd during the arrest as the cause for his death in its arguments. In its efforts to refute the prosecution's claims, the defense has instead focused on Floyd’s drug use and underlying health problems as contributing factors.

During comments to Cahill early Thursday, Blackwell said Baker had discovered results from tests conducted when Floyd’s body was examined last year that had information related to his carbon monoxide content.
Blackwell said the state had previously subpoenaed all the medical records, but it did not receive records containing the evidence in question.

“Dr. Baker heard the testimony, had not himself ever requested this, nor had the ER physicians. They explained that when somebody is brought in, and blood gases are taken, there’s a panel of them that are taken, the ones that get generated and the records would be the ones that the ER physicians actually request,” he said.

“Nobody requested carbon monoxide readings, because they didn't see how that was relevant,” he added.

“Did Dr. Baker spontaneously call you to tell you that there might be something deep within the computer records that was not disclosed or did you seek him out?” Cahill later asked.

“We did not seek him out and ask anything. He had heard the testimony and thought that this record might exist because he was aware that there's a panel of the tests that are run by the machine,” he said.

After ruling against the prosecution, Cahill warned of a mistrial if the state’s rebuttal witness, Martin Tobin, discussed the evidence when he was expected to take the stand later.

“The defense gave notice that this was going to be an issue and specifically talked about testing the sample,” Cahill said.

“Even if it's just because Dr. Baker called the state and said, ‘We, we can actually find this' at 8 o'clock this morning, when the defense expert is done testifying, has left the state,” he said, referring to Fowler.

“If he even hints that there are test results the jury has not heard about, it's going to be a mistrial, pure and simple. This late disclosure is not the way we should be operating here,” the judge also said.

However, the judge said Tobin would be allowed to add information about carbon monoxide in regards to environmental factors when he takes the stand.

“Dr. Tobin may testify as to carbon monoxide if he sticks to the environmental factors and as a pulmonologist, looking at the videos for example and seeing Mr. Floyd's location and not knowing whether the vehicle is even on or not, which the state brought out in cross-examination,” he said.
rfenst Offline
#124 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,335
Speyside wrote:
The fact that the prosecution withheld what seems to be exculpatory evidence until after the jury went into deliberation. Yes, I know that is not part of this appeal, but it will I think eventually cause a mistrial. There was a blood toxicity report that showed CO2 was in George Floyd's blood. I do not think the outcome would be any different if this had been presented, but I am sure that evidence was withheld.

Is this what you are referring to...?

Derek Chauvin’s lawyer seeks new trial
He claims jury misconduct and says the court abused its discretion.


AP/Politico


MINNEAPOLIS — The defense attorney for the former Minneapolis police officer convicted of killing George Floyd has requested a new trial, saying the court abused its discretion, and he wants a hearing to have the verdict impeached because of what he says is jury misconduct, according to a court document filed Tuesday.

Derek Chauvin, who is white, was convicted last month of second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter in the May 25 death of Floyd. Evidence at trial showed Chauvin pressed his knee against Floyd’s neck for 9 1/2 minutes as the Black man said he couldn’t breathe and went motionless.

Defense attorney Eric Nelson said he is requesting a new trial in the interests of justice. He said there were abuses of discretion that deprived Chauvin of a fair trial, prosecutorial and jury misconduct and that the verdict was contrary to law.

A request for a new trial is routine following a guilty verdict and often mirrors issues that will be raised on appeal, said Mike Brandt, a Minneapolis defense attorney who has been closely following the case. If this request is denied, it can add another layer of decisions for Nelson to appeal. Brandt and others have said Chauvin’s convictions are unlikely to be overturned.

Nelson cited many reasons in his request for a new trial. He said Judge Peter Cahill abused the discretion of the court and violated Chauvin’s right to due process and a fair trial when he denied Nelson’s request to move the trial to another county due to pretrial publicity.

He also said Cahill abused his discretion when he denied an earlier request for a new trial based on publicity during the proceedings, which Nelson said threatened the fairness of the trial. Nelson said that publicity included “intimidation” of the defense expert witness, which he said could have a “far-reaching chilling effect” on the ability of defendants to get expert witnesses in high-profile cases, including the upcoming cases of the three other former officers charged in Floyd’s death.

“The publicity here was so pervasive and so prejudicial before and during this trial that it amounted to a structural defect in the proceedings,” Nelson wrote.

Nelson also took issue with Cahill’s refusal to sequester the jury for the trial or warn them to avoid all media, and with his refusal to allow a man who was with Floyd at the time of his arrest to testify.

Nelson said Cahill also abused his discretion when he submitted jury instructions that Nelson said failed to accurately reflect the law on the murder charges and use of force, permitted the state to present cumulative evidence on use of force, and ordered the state to lead witnesses on direct examination, among other things.

Nelson also asked the judge for a hearing to impeach the verdict on the grounds that the jury committed misconduct, felt race-based pressure, felt intimidated or threatened, and/or failed to adhere to jury instructions, though the filing did not include details about that assertion. To impeach a verdict is to question its validity.

The brief did not mention recent reports that one of the jurors participated in an Aug. 28 march in Washington, D.C., to honor Martin Luther King, Jr.

That juror, Brandon Mitchell, has defended his actions, saying the event was to commemorate the 1963 March on Washington and was not a protest over Floyd’s death. Floyd’s brother and sister, Philonise and Bridgett Floyd, and relatives of others who had been shot by police addressed the crowd at the march last summer.

Nelson did not immediately return a message seeking details about his allegation of juror misconduct.

Brandt said Nelson will likely file more detailed written arguments on these issues. The purpose of holding a hearing to impeach the verdict would be to develop a factual record and present evidence that could determine whether the verdict was compromised. If a hearing is granted, it’s likely Mitchell would be called in to answer questions, Brandt said.
Speyside Offline
#125 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I thought I read a report had been held back. I can find no reference to that now. So my above statements are wrong.
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