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bassdude Offline
#51 Posted: Fri, Aug 13 2004, 8:43 AM EST
Joined: 01-13-2004
Posts: 8,871
wow, sonnyamaven.

He has blinders on and wil never see that fact that Iraq was necessary. Iraq supported terrorists. I don't care what reason we had for going over there it was needed. The UN is a big **** op or we would NOT be there.

You say if Bush had given a different reason you would support thewar - dude give up the semantics.
AVB Offline
#52 Posted: Fri, Aug 13 2004, 9:02 AM EST
Joined: 05-21-2003
Posts: 995
Armed Forces accident rates:
https://www.denix.osd.mil/denix/Public/ES-Programs/Force/Safety/Accidents/view_report.cgi/

Total DOD deaths were 1020 in 2000 (latest year I could find) so Iraq has just about doubled (or will soon) the death rate average.
rayder1 Offline
#53 Posted: Fri, Aug 13 2004, 10:09 AM EST
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
You have to also take into consideration that a large number of those that would have died stateside from different causes were sent to Iraq.
You have to get into a theological discussion whether the same folks would have died there instead of stateside or at other peaceful assignments.

War is dangerous...but would Johnny NCO's have gotten drunk and crashed into a tree outside of Bremen Germany or caught a sniper round on patrol in Baghdad?

It would be interesting, statistically to see: If the Armed forces average 1000 deaths a year in assorted peacetime causes, how much is the average number raised by the Iraq conflict.
Obviously injuries will be much higher do the higher level of overall military activity than peacetime.
AVB Offline
#54 Posted: Fri, Aug 13 2004, 11:26 AM EST
Joined: 05-21-2003
Posts: 995
You have to consider that the 1020 total DOD deaths were from a 1.5 million population. The 925+ deaths in Iraq are from a population of about 140,000.
usahog Offline
#55 Posted: Fri, Aug 13 2004, 12:41 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
AVB to break it down.. the 925+ are from a total force at one time of a little over 250,000+ strong building up for Iraq during and after... but even the building up for was not in account here...

this is not a numbers game.. this is real life/death tolls we are talking about.. and at the same note as Rayder1 has pointed out... the number of military members deaths per year or quarter here in the US or US Military all together is not viewed as the "hot topic" what is viewed as Hot Topic is how it is played upon by the media and far left as to the Iraq situation and sometimes they mix in Afganistan deaths to try and get their points across...

one thing is for damn sure and it Makes the Military Fighting Men and Women Proud... the fact that the death counts are not coming from an American Civilian Count as per say... 911 World Trade Center, Pentagon nor American Airline or United... and for that everyone should just be damn proud of the sacrifices these men and women endure every day to keep America safe and a better way of life... you for one with 30+ yrs of service know this first hand...

One thing... this sure has been an intersting thread and it brings to light some of the touchy feely things to get to know one's take on the situation... Thus good debates!!!

Hog
AVB Offline
#56 Posted: Fri, Aug 13 2004, 4:47 PM EST
Joined: 05-21-2003
Posts: 995
Thanks for pointing out the rotation, it completely slipped by me. With some units going back for their 2nd tour the population may be as high as 350,000.

Beyond that, the underlaying question was and is..... should they have happened at all?
rayder1 Offline
#57 Posted: Sat, Aug 14 2004, 6:14 AM EST
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
The answer is yes. Usahog pointed out why. And the understanding is made. The sacrafices made in Aphghanistan in our fight against the Al Queda and Taliban and in Iraq in our fight to liberate a terrorist sponsor is not in vain.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#58 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 5:10 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
tailgater, sucks to be worthless doesn't it?
Sonny_LSU Offline
#59 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 5:13 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
rayder, here's a donut for not comprehending my statements. oh wait! Have I just stereo typed you as the A typical donut loving cop?
EI Offline
#60 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 6:00 AM EST
Joined: 06-29-2002
Posts: 5,069
Sonny time to change your story, Kerry just said he would still have gone to Iraq even if he knew then what he knows now.

They call him flipper, flipper, faster than lightning, no one you see, can flip flop like he
Sonny_LSU Offline
#61 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 7:19 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
Well, it is such a warm and fuzzy feeling to know that we are sending 70,000 more troops to Iraq......only positive here is that they are currnetly on active duty. So, when is this Iraq thing going to come to some finality (tongue-in-cheek)????? You retired military guys had better start getting ready......
Clint Offline
#62 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 7:22 AM EST
Joined: 06-07-2004
Posts: 31
I don't normally get involved in these discussions, but I really feel the following quote would be useful:

"The other day a leader of a terror cell was captured. We were trying to provide clean water, new industry and safe passage for the hard working and peacable Iraqi's when he was caught trying to emplace an improvised explosive device (IED) designed to kill Americans. When he was asked what he would do if the Iraqi government ask us to leave he said he woudl follow us. So we have literally called the terrorist out and they are gathered together in this place where we can eliminate them and prevent them from duplicating the 9/11 tragedy." --1sgt Smoke (Fallujah, Iraq)

There is a difference between belief and fact. There is what we want to hear, and what we don't. Those who have the least on the line are speaking for all of us, and refuse to hear the hard spoken truth from those with an infallible perspective on this situation.

As the world cheers for the Iraqi soccer team in the Olympics this year (I cheered yesterday myself!), we cannot forget those tremendous athletes who are putting it all on the line to make this possible: The US and coalition military men and women.
CWFoster Offline
#63 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 4:51 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
LETS DO A REALITY CHECK HERE. First, everybody in this countrys leadership for at LEAST seven years thought we needed to sort out Saddam because of suspected WMD. Clinton, Daschele, Gore, Kerry, and everybody else who is now criticising Bush was saying BEFORE BUSH EVEN GOT ELECTED
CWFoster Offline
#64 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 4:51 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
LETS DO A REALITY CHECK HERE. First, everybody in this countrys leadership for at LEAST seven years thought we needed to sort out Saddam because of suspected WMD. Clinton, Daschele, Gore, Kerry, and everybody else who is now criticising Bush was saying BEFORE BUSH EVEN GOT ELECTED
CWFoster Offline
#65 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 4:51 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
LETS DO A REALITY CHECK HERE. First, everybody in this countrys leadership for at LEAST seven years thought we needed to sort out Saddam because of suspected WMD. Clinton, Daschele, Gore, Kerry, and everybody else who is now criticising Bush was saying BEFORE BUSH EVEN GOT ELECTED
CWFoster Offline
#66 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 4:51 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
LETS DO A REALITY CHECK HERE. First, everybody in this countrys leadership for at LEAST seven years thought we needed to sort out Saddam because of suspected WMD. Clinton, Daschele, Gore, Kerry, and everybody else who is now criticising Bush was saying BEFORE BUSH EVEN GOT ELECTED
CWFoster Offline
#67 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 4:51 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
LETS DO A REALITY CHECK HERE. First, everybody in this countrys leadership for at LEAST seven years thought we needed to sort out Saddam because of suspected WMD. Clinton, Daschele, Gore, Kerry, and everybody else who is now criticising Bush was saying BEFORE BUSH EVEN GOT ELECTED
CWFoster Offline
#68 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 4:51 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
LETS DO A REALITY CHECK HERE. First, everybody in this countrys leadership for at LEAST seven years thought we needed to sort out Saddam because of suspected WMD. Clinton, Daschele, Gore, Kerry, and everybody else who is now criticising Bush was saying BEFORE BUSH EVEN GOT ELECTED
CWFoster Offline
#69 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 4:51 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
LETS DO A REALITY CHECK HERE. First, everybody in this countrys leadership for at LEAST seven years thought we needed to sort out Saddam because of suspected WMD. Clinton, Daschele, Gore, Kerry, and everybody else who is now criticising Bush was saying BEFORE BUSH EVEN GOT ELECTED
CWFoster Offline
#70 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 4:51 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
LETS DO A REALITY CHECK HERE. First, everybody in this countrys leadership for at LEAST seven years thought we needed to sort out Saddam because of suspected WMD. Clinton, Daschele, Gore, Kerry, and everybody else who is now criticising Bush was saying BEFORE BUSH EVEN GOT ELECTED
CWFoster Offline
#71 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 4:56 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
LETS DO A REALITY CHECK HERE. First, everybody in this countrys leadership for at LEAST seven years thought we needed to sort out Saddam because of suspected WMD. Clinton, Daschele, Gore, Kerry, and everybody else who is now criticising Bush was saying BEFORE BUSH EVEN GOT ELECTED was saying we were going to have to do something! Second, WHO do you think is more responsible for the intelligence errors that led everybody to beleive that the WMD were there? Yes, ultimately the President is responsible, but in a more DIRECT way, don't you think the Congressional oversight of the intel community should be held accountable? Oh, WAIT! That would be John Kerry! Third, I personally beleive the weapons were there, perhaps still are, I hope. If not Saddam had plenty of time to send them to someone he could count on to avenge him.
usahog Offline
#72 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 5:08 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
their finding the **** WMD materials that have been and were being shipped out of the country in (Scrap) barges that went out to different country's...

France, Syria, Denmark, Germany... this stuff was showing up as junk metels etc in these different country's and Saddam was shipping it even while the war was going on....

but hey they were not actually in the country of Iraq so this doesn't count... BS...

a play on words and thats what this country is coming down to even with the elections and two faced John Kerry!!!!

Hog
tailgater Offline
#73 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2004, 5:17 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Sonny,
If you can't take a joke I'd suggest staying off these boards.
Geez, you'd think a big strong football player like yourself wouldn't be so thin skinned.
Please review your original "rebuttal" and try to deny that it doesn't sound like self righteous bragging.

I found it funny, and figured I'd simply run with it. I don't see how that equates to being worthless. Perhaps you could explain.

Sonny_LSU Offline
#74 Posted: Tue, Aug 17 2004, 4:56 AM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
....I'm thin-skinned and have a bad temper.....

punk
CWFoster Offline
#75 Posted: Tue, Aug 17 2004, 5:05 AM EST
Joined: 12-12-2003
Posts: 5,414
oops don't know WHAT happened up there!
tailgater Offline
#76 Posted: Tue, Aug 17 2004, 2:45 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Sonny,
Then we should get along just fine.
I'm thick headed and have no temper.

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