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Trump warns "Get Ready Russia" missiles are coming to Syria...
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Phil222 Offline
#51 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 10:21 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
tailgater wrote:
Few details are out so soon, but even the CNN reports I saw this morning called the attack "precise" and "limited" and admitted that it sent a message without causing enough concern for retaliation. (Talk about shock and awe: CNN seemingly reporting on the facts.)

This bombing as not intended to address the civil war over there. It was entirely focused on the chemical weapon attack.

Overall, this seems well restrained.

The only thing illegal was Syria's use of chemical weapons. And now they know there will be consequences.

You seem to simultaneously want the US to do less (stop bombing Syria) and more (let's bomb everyone who perpetrate atrocities).

Whenever we kill innocent people with our bombs, I wouldn’t refer to the action as precise, but that is just me. The bombing was illegal because it was unconstitutional. It is interesting to me how many constitution hawks there are when it comes to the 2nd Amendment, but not when it comes to dropping bombs on other countries.

You say that the bombing was to address the chemical attacks, but we have been provided no evidence that chemical weapons were even used, nor if Assad is even responsible if there were. I’m pretty sure both sides have access to chemical weapons.

You also didn’t answer my question as to why Syria and no one else? You’re correct in assuming that I want less and more. Less messing around in Syria without the proper evidence, and more responses to things we actually have proof of, like the siege warfare going on in Yemen or the 750 protesters who were shot on the Gaza border. I’m merely questioning our motives.

If we truly are hitting Syria for the right reasons, why do we let so many other tragedies go unnoticed? Is millions of women and children starving to death in Yemen any less atrocious than a few people dying from an Assad bomb in Syria? Either both are atrocious and should be addressed or neither should. Why pick one and not the other? Why act at all without the proper evidence?

And I'm not saying we should go around bombing everyone who commits terrible acts, but there are things we could do to make it harder on some of these other countries and we don't.
ZRX1200 Offline
#52 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 10:33 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
We have no business in Syria.

They did not launch the recent alleged incident.

We are not the world police.

See step 1.
teedubbya Offline
#53 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 10:39 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Z I agree with all but your second statement. As for the second statement it doesn’t matter if we agree because we agree on the rest.
victor809 Offline
#54 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 11:11 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Meh... I'm not bothered by this...

We didn't really do anything good or bad... just wasted some money.

Military/government targets... and they were evacuated first.
teedubbya Offline
#55 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 11:24 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I want us out of the area. Our mistake was becoming more involved in the area not less.
Phil222 Offline
#56 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 11:44 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
teedubbya wrote:
I want us out of the area. Our mistake was becoming more involved in the area not less.


I’m pretty non-interventionist myself, but even I have to admit there are circumstances where we do need to intervene. And it doesn’t always have to involve troops or bombs.

I think at what point should we intervene is the more difficult question, 10,000; 100,000; 1,000,000 innocent lives lost?

I think it is sad that we waited until we did to get involved in WWII (the last war that was actually declared by Congress).

That being said, I would agree that most of our current military actions in the Middle East need to cease.
tailgater Offline
#57 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 11:49 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Phil222 wrote:
Whenever we kill innocent people with our bombs, I wouldn’t refer to the action as precise, but that is just me. The bombing was illegal because it was unconstitutional. It is interesting to me how many constitution hawks there are when it comes to the 2nd Amendment, but not when it comes to dropping bombs on other countries.

You say that the bombing was to address the chemical attacks, but we have been provided no evidence that chemical weapons were even used, nor if Assad is even responsible if there were. I’m pretty sure both sides have access to chemical weapons.

You also didn’t answer my question as to why Syria and no one else? You’re correct in assuming that I want less and more. Less messing around in Syria without the proper evidence, and more responses to things we actually have proof of, like the siege warfare going on in Yemen or the 750 protesters who were shot on the Gaza border. I’m merely questioning our motives.

If we truly are hitting Syria for the right reasons, why do we let so many other tragedies go unnoticed? Is millions of women and children starving to death in Yemen any less atrocious than a few people dying from an Assad bomb in Syria? Either both are atrocious and should be addressed or neither should. Why pick one and not the other? Why act at all without the proper evidence?

And I'm not saying we should go around bombing everyone who commits terrible acts; there are things we could do to make it harder on some of these other countries and we don't.


Actually, I did answer your question.
Chemical weapons.
tailgater Offline
#58 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 11:50 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Phil222 wrote:
I’m pretty non-interventionist myself, but even I have to admit there are circumstances where we do need to intervene. And it doesn’t always have to involve troops or bombs.

At what point should we intervene is the more difficult question, 10,000; 100,000; 1,000,000 innocent lives lost?

I think it is sad that we waited until we did to get involved in WWII (the last war that was actually declared by Congress).

That being said, I would agree that most of our current military actions in the Middle East need to cease.


I agree.

As for when we should intervene?
I think the answer is clearly 10M.
Or is it MM
Or K?
Maybe X?
teedubbya Offline
#59 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 11:55 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
There have been multiple chemical attacks in Syria but also in many other countries over the past few months let alone years.

Killing is killing. Either we are cool with Assad killing his people or not. Or maybe more accurate not cool with it but unwilling to do anything.

We don’t belong there.
Phil222 Offline
#60 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 12:03 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
tailgater wrote:
Actually, I did answer your question.
Chemical weapons.


That doesn't really answer my question. Are you saying that chemical weapons should be the deciding factor on whether we intervene? The method of death should be more important than the death itself? What about starving to death or civilian casualities in regular bombs? This is okay?

Also, please report back when you have proof that Assad commited the chemical attack. We still don't have evidence that he did it from the last time we bombed him.

EDIT: And I'm not saying you're opinion on intervention is right or wrong here either; I'm just interested in alternative viewpoints, and trying to work out my own opinions on intervention. It really is a complex topic and far from black and white.
Phil222 Offline
#61 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 2:01 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
https://theconversation.com/under-the-trump-administration-us-airstrikes-are-killing-more-civilians-85154

Just came across this. It looks like Trump's bombs killed more civilians in his first year than Obama did in his entire two terms (between 2,800 and 4,500). That's an impressive feat considering the amount of bombs Obama dropped on the Middle East.
frankj1 Offline
#62 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 2:13 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
I thought we dropped the mutha of all bombs already so we wouldn't have to do it again.

and I guess the question of announcing to give Russia time to get out was answered...NO.
He just couldn't keep it a secret like the allies involved with us did.

so much for the "logic" talk on page one.
Phil222 Offline
#63 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 2:20 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
Maybe Trump is so smart that he telegraphed his punches because he thought Assad/Russia would never think he was actually stupid enough to do that...but then he showed Assad/Russia that he is stupid enough to do that...mind blown. Trump is playing 3D Chess and I'm in awe. Cool
frankj1 Offline
#64 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 2:30 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
dunno. we did this last year too.
ZRX1200 Offline
#65 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 2:30 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
Teedubya, we're you cool with us arming ISIS in Syria? We're you OK with Israel helping them train and obtain chemical weapons in the first part of this conflict?
Phil222 Offline
#66 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 2:32 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
frankj1 wrote:
dunno. we did this last year too.


Oh, sorry. Anxious
ZRX1200 Offline
#67 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 3:31 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
And now we have Bolton.
teedubbya Offline
#68 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 3:52 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Zrx - no. I’m not sure why you think I would be assuming all that is true. No. Simply no.

I’ve been pretty consistent forever on all of this. I voted for Bush. Ever wonder where teedubbya as my name came from?

When did I turn on Bush? Hint.. Colin Powell’s non evidence to the UN and the manufactured war in Iraq. The one Bolton, Cheney and the gang were behind and the one where there were no WMDs despite some people’s insistence that a cousin of a cousin saw them and others insistance that it was the Dems fault.

This is when I turned in to a dem according to many in here that would later share my view. Questioning the great dubbya was a sin in here.

I have been against our presence and approach in the area since. It didn’t change under Obama. Why would it? I never liked obama. Recognizing the absurdity and idiocy of birthers and folks calling him a Muslim etc is seeing through the stupid conspiracy crap not supporting him or his policy. I’m not a fan of the smarter than though deep personal Intel that nearly always proves wrong. Birtherism was stupid at the time let alone over time despite the secret knowledge folks had and the sheeples inability to see it. Most conspiracy theories are bunk and anyone who sees everything as such need help. Occasionally one will prove true. That doesn’t prove all the others or that fantasy land is real.

Back to this though I agree with you on nearly everything. We are on the same side here. I just beleive Assad used and uses chemical weapons. It’s simple. To me of course he does. It also doesn’t mean others don’t. It doesn’t change my take one way or another. I just don’t beleive the conspiracy here either.

Some of our allies that called us out saying the Iraq was war based on bunk information and there were no wMDs are saying they have evidence it was Assad. Remember freedom fries and not being allowed in French airspace (when they were right as was hans blix)

All that aside I don’t care if it was Assad or someone else. It’s irrellevant to me. We don’t belong there nor do our missiles unless it’s to prevent missiles from coming our way.
teedubbya Offline
#69 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 3:53 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
And now we have both Bolton. Fuch.
ZRX1200 Offline
#70 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
So are we hugging agan now?
teedubbya Offline
#71 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 4:07 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Is that why I’m no longer flaccid?
teedubbya Offline
#72 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 4:13 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
To be honest even when I was working on Regans campaign I was never comfortable with the pocket of hawks that wanted to turn the Mideast in to a parking lot. It’s dumb and doesn’t work that way. Dubbya found that out.

I’m also not proud of secretly selling arms to the very people (literally) that took our hostages and now trump says obama shouldn’t have dealt with (maybe correctly).

But that’s another issue for another day. Our Mid East policy is effed up.
Phil222 Offline
#73 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 4:35 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
I find it funny when people who ask legitimate questions get labeled as conspiracy theorists. I don't doubt that Assad has used chemical weapons in the past; I just don't know if he has used them in these last two instances, and neither does anyone else. The fact that certain countries didn't support Iraq, but do this new Syria thing proves nothing.

I'm not talking about birth certificates or Seth Rich here, we have been fed false flags on miltary actions in the past. I think the American people deserve to know what the evidence is when we're flirting with a potential WW3. Especially when our government just stated that we had no evidence that Assad used chemical weapons on his own people during last year's fiasco. Anyways, our Mid East policy is definitely effed up.
Abrignac Offline
#74 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 4:39 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,294
teedubbya wrote:

But that’s another issue for another day. Our Mid East policy is effed up.


I didn't know one even existed.
teedubbya Offline
#75 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 4:48 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Phil I don’t care what you think or dont and wasn’t labeling you. I wasn’t even thinking about you nor had I read any of your posts in this thread. You were not a faint bleep in my mind.

I don’t care if Assad did it or not. I think it’s more likely than not but don’t care. I do beleive there are enough countries siting evidence with no real claims otherwise that it’s most likely. Part of that could be because I don’t think it makes a difference.

The conspiracy stuff is based on history and time/instances having nothing to do with you. If you want to apply it simply to this instance and make yourself the victim knock yourself out. I really don’t even know who you are.

Abrig no doubt.
teedubbya Offline
#76 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 4:54 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Phil that may Read as snarky. That’s not the intent. I just don’t know you and was not speaking of you. I don’t know what you embrace or don’t.
teedubbya Offline
#77 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 5:00 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I was a conspiracy theorist when I thought Bush/Cheney/Bolton/ we’re lying about wmds.

One conspiracy being true doesn’t make them all true, one being false doesn’t make them all false. I think I said as much above.
HuckFinn Offline
#78 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 5:08 PM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Phil222 wrote:


Also, please report back when you have proof that Assad commited the chemical attack. We still don't have evidence that he did it from the last time we bombed him.


From:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/04/14/french-report-lays-out-evidence-assad-forces-conducted-chemical-attack-civilians/517187002/

French analysts examined photos taken in two locations that depicted the following symptoms consistent with a chemical attack
Suffocation or breathing difficulties,
Mentions of a strong chlorine odor and presence of green smoke in the areas affected,
Extreme salivation and secretions from the mouth and nose
Cyanosis, or blue coloration of the skin due to poor oxygen flow.
Burns to the skin and cornea.
"No deaths from mechanical injuries were visible," the report said. "All of these symptoms are characteristic of a chemical weapons attack, particularly choking agents and organophosphorus agents or hydrocyanic acid."

France's conclusions were supported by Trump administration officials Saturday afternoon who determined that both chlorine and sarin, a highly toxic nerve agent, were used on the civilians by the forces under Assad in the April 7 attack.

Their findings were based on first-hand accounts of military helicopters releasing barrel bombs, evidence of features and markings of the bombs consistent with those Syrian forces used in previous attacks, and photos and videos of victims exhibiting the effects of chemical exposure such as foaming at the mouth, said the officials who requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.
Phil222 Offline
#79 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 5:10 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
#75 I apologize if I misunderstood your post. I have seen people labeling those who have questions about these chemical attacks as “conspiracy theorists” and thought you were doing the same. I was under the impression that I was having an honest discussion and voicing my opinion on these issues; not trying to play the victim card. Not consciously anyways. I hope we can return to you ignoring my posts in a friendly manner. Cool
Phil222 Offline
#80 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 5:19 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
HuckFinn wrote:
From:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/04/14/french-report-lays-out-evidence-assad-forces-conducted-chemical-attack-civilians/517187002/

French analysts examined photos taken in two locations that depicted the following symptoms consistent with a chemical attack
Suffocation or breathing difficulties,
Mentions of a strong chlorine odor and presence of green smoke in the areas affected,
Extreme salivation and secretions from the mouth and nose
Cyanosis, or blue coloration of the skin due to poor oxygen flow.
Burns to the skin and cornea.
"No deaths from mechanical injuries were visible," the report said. "All of these symptoms are characteristic of a chemical weapons attack, particularly choking agents and organophosphorus agents or hydrocyanic acid."

France's conclusions were supported by Trump administration officials Saturday afternoon who determined that both chlorine and sarin, a highly toxic nerve agent, were used on the civilians by the forces under Assad in the April 7 attack.

Their findings were based on first-hand accounts of military helicopters releasing barrel bombs, evidence of features and markings of the bombs consistent with those Syrian forces used in previous attacks, and photos and videos of victims exhibiting the effects of chemical exposure such as foaming at the mouth, said the officials who requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.


I will have to look into this further, but first glance seems good enough to me. Thanks for posting.
Phil222 Offline
#81 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 5:25 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
teedubbya wrote:
Phil that may Read as snarky. That’s not the intent. I just don’t know you and was not speaking of you. I don’t know what you embrace or don’t.


No, it's cool. I feel like my thoughts come off bad on print. Sometimes they read differently than my intent. I don't really have any excuses for my reading comprehension. Ha!
ZRX1200 Offline
#82 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 9:55 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
First hand accounts from.......and anonymity......everything I look for in a BS article. They are about to vanquish the terrorists WE armed. Great time to do a chemical attack......

We say thank you.

Sincerely,
Military Industrial Complex
jjanecka Offline
#83 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 10:20 PM EST
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
We need more military prescense in the middle east until muslims learn how to tolerate othe religions/cultures in their area.
Phil222 Offline
#84 Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2018, 10:39 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
#82 I have my concerns with the current evidence as well. I hope the ground investigation is just postponed and not canceled. Would have been nice if we could have waited one more day for them to check it out.
tailgater Offline
#85 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 9:21 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Phil222 wrote:
That doesn't really answer my question. Are you saying that chemical weapons should be the deciding factor on whether we intervene? The method of death should be more important than the death itself? What about starving to death or civilian casualities in regular bombs? This is okay?

Also, please report back when you have proof that Assad commited the chemical attack. We still don't have evidence that he did it from the last time we bombed him.

EDIT: And I'm not saying you're opinion on intervention is right or wrong here either; I'm just interested in alternative viewpoints, and trying to work out my own opinions on intervention. It really is a complex topic and far from black and white.


Let me start with the obvious: No. I'm not saying that chemical weapons are THE deciding factor.

I'll add the obvious: Chemical weapons are part of the no-no trio (nukes and bio weapons being the other two).

And I'll end with the obvious: No. Starving death and civilian casualties are not okay.
Phil222 Offline
#86 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 9:43 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
tailgater wrote:
Let me start with the obvious: No. I'm not saying that chemical weapons are THE deciding factor.

I'll add the obvious: Chemical weapons are part of the no-no trio (nukes and bio weapons being the other two).

And I'll end with the obvious: No. Starving death and civilian casualties are not okay.



It would be nice if our government felt the same way as you do...
teedubbya Offline
#87 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 10:14 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
#84 lmao. Wrong person to preach using our military to force toleration of other religions. And in this case it doesn’t appear to be about religion.

We do t belong there. There have been other bio and chemical attacks met with no response (or rhetoric rather than military).
teedubbya Offline
#88 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 10:17 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Oh and Phil I wasn’t purposely not reading your posts. I just haven’t been in here much lately, have been skimming when I am and your name wasn’t grabbing my eyes and most posts were sort of long. I’ve read them now. Makes sense why you thought I was referring to you. I wasn’t.
Phil222 Offline
#89 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 10:52 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
No worries, TW. I have a bit of a Trump complex and sometimes I feel everything is about me. And I really need to figure out how to get my point across without writing multiple paragraphs. I totally get that no one wants to read that crap. Haha!

I can get a little carried away trying to spur some original thought and debate, and I think it comes across very badly. I’m gonna work on it.
HuckFinn Offline
#90 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 11:11 AM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
90 percent of ISIS’s arms and ammunition were found to have originated in Russia, China and Eastern European states.

From:

http://www.newsweek.com/how-isis-got-weapons-us-used-them-take-iraq-syria-748468
ZRX1200 Offline
#91 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 12:34 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,620
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/how-isis-started-syria-iraq/412042/

500 million. And beware the word "moderates".

Good read though in this link.
tailgater Offline
#92 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 3:42 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Phil222 wrote:
It would be nice if our government felt the same way as you do...


Yes.
Yes it would.
frankj1 Offline
#93 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 4:00 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
tailgater wrote:
Yes.
Yes it would.


you voted for the guy!
HA!
gummy jones Offline
#94 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 6:02 PM EST
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
#83 so forever and ever?
frankj1 Offline
#95 Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018, 6:42 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
gummy jones wrote:
#83 so forever and ever?

ah, you know jj's agenda. brilliant guy, but he wants da pope to rule da world.
so many kinds of gentiles, makes my head spin
tailgater Offline
#96 Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2018, 8:26 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
you voted for the guy!
HA!


Yes.
Yes I did.
frankj1 Offline
#97 Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2018, 8:43 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
but you're wicked smahtah
RMAN4443 Offline
#98 Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2018, 12:28 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
frankj1 wrote:
but you're wicked smahtah

Smahtahrer?......Think

Smahtahrerest evah?Think
frankj1 Offline
#99 Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2018, 1:19 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,223
RMAN4443 wrote:
Smahtahrer?......Think

Smahtahrerest evah?Think

yup, evah.
you met him.
RMAN4443 Offline
#100 Posted: Mon, Apr 16 2018, 1:28 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
frankj1 wrote:
yup, evah.
you met him.

true........He's definitely not as dumb as he looks........but then no one could be that dumb LOL
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