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Abortion
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DrMaddVibe Offline
#51 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 6:36 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,513
I have a child that fits into your category. She's not supposed to be alive. She's paralyzed from t-4 down. She's 15 and in high school. We make choices in life. Given all of her problems and all of her triumphs I wouldn't even think of life without her, and I'm POSITIVE I can speak for the wife on that one too!
usahog Offline
#52 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 6:42 AM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Plabonte : Would not a women's body be considered a life support machine for her fetus? If it was determined that an unborn child was not able to survive on its own would an abortion therefore be ok? In essence the abortion is the disconnecting of the life support machine, the mother.

Turn this Around.. the Woman is Pregnant and she has a bad car accedent or something that renders her Brain dead... the baby is fine but nothing will bring her back.. would it be ok to unplug the woman from the life support?
if there is 1-99% chance that the baby could servive.. then thats a chance that has to be taken... I am Pro Life but in an issue as this one has been, I feel in some cases it is the Womans choice.. Not for any other reason other than Medical reasons that would cause fatel to the woman or the child or both... not to just discard a living being because it was an accadent in conception.. or birth defects.. No other reason should be deamed IMO...

Hog
plabonte Offline
#53 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 7:13 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
I'm glad to hear your positive story Dr.MV. Although I may not share your beliefs on this subject it does bring up an important point that doctors are not always right.

I agree with you usahog that in some instances abortion should be allowed. I'm not talking about abortion as a form of birth control. I'm talking in cases where it is detrimental to the woman's health to have the child, or in the case of pregnancy through rape, or in the case where a child isn't expected to live. (although DR MV has me thinking about that last one)

On a similar idea there is a pill called the "Day after Pill". I don't know all the specifics but it in essence is used the day after conception may have occurred and it in effect aborts the growing cells. Obviously there is no heart beat the day after conception. For you pro-life advocates, is this pill just as wrong as a regular abortion and if so is it wrong in all instances or are there some where it could be used?
E-Chick Offline
#54 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 9:32 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Plabonte, it's called RU-486...

Break it down...Are You For Eighty-Six? As in 'can' it?

Wonder if the name for the morning after pill was intended as a pun...hmmm?

I'd have to catergorize it in the ending a life catergory.

Many times, a woman's egg is fertilized and then rejected by her body for implantation and subsequent pregnancy. It is expelled unknowingly during her cycle.

If it implanted, and began to grow to the point that she realized she was pregnant, then 'miscarried', it would be called a spontaneous abortion. The body occassionally aborts all on it's own. Whether we choose it or not.

But to take the morning after pill, a choice, is to make certain that any cells that may have come together to start to form a new human life, is a definite attempt at termination. Whatever you want to call it.
plabonte Offline
#55 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 9:51 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
Thanks E. You are right about the name. I had forgotten because in college we learned about it as the day after pill.

So if I take an action that "...make(s) certain that any cells that may have come together to start to form a new human life ,is a definite attempt at termination"

If I use a condom or my partner takes the pill we are attempting to make sure that any cells that may have come together to start to form a new human life. According to E's definition this is an attempt at termination and is therefore abortion.

OK maybe that isn't exactly what she meant but at what point does life start? Is it the exact moment of conception, or when the heart starts beating, or when the sperm is swimming in the testes and the egg floating in the overy? At what point does attempting to stop the creation of life become immoral and wrong?
Lowman Offline
#56 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 9:55 AM EST
Joined: 12-03-2002
Posts: 6,982
Hey E,
The M.A.P. is basically the same formula as a birth control pill, only in a higher concentration. The doctors sell this to the public. The same results can be obtained by taking a large dose of one's oral contraceptives. It is basically changing the woman's harmones and altering her cycle.

I worked for Planned Parenthood for 3 years maintaining their computer system. The 10 centers that I was associated with DID NOT perform abortions. They are a woman's healthcare facility. Women came to them as they would a gynocologist. They did exams etc. Some of our facilities even did primary care. The difference is that they work on a sliding scale for pricing. This allowed the "less fortunate" to also have quality healthcare and pay less money.

I don't want to get into this since everyone has their own views on this matter. This debate can go on forever!!

Low

Let's get back to cigars... So, How do you guys like those Bucanero Full Sails???
plabonte Offline
#57 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 9:58 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
I didn't get any. Someone must have aborted my shippment.
E-Chick Offline
#58 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 10:32 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Good post there Low...I don't use oral contraceptives...it's not my 'mouth' that I'm worried about! LOL! Had to say that one, lol!

Anyway, I don't use them and was unaware that they could be used in that manner...thanks for the info.

BTW, I absolutely DO use birth control. It's called Erica and Kevin, LOL! I'm done! Kids, the best birth control known to man (or woman)!
plabonte Offline
#59 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 10:35 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
That reminds me of a joke E:

Two sperm are swimming. Sperm #1 says, "Boy am I tired. Are we at the Uterus yet?" Sperm #2 replies, "Uterus! We aren't even past the esophagus."
Lowman Offline
#60 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 10:58 AM EST
Joined: 12-03-2002
Posts: 6,982
LMAO !!!
tailgater Offline
#61 Posted: Tue, Feb 11 2003, 3:59 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
When the "day after pill" is used properly (the day after) then I have no problem with its use.
But I've heard that the same pill can be used weeks, possibly months after conception as a means to chemically abort the baby.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#62 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 1:20 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
usahog

question. did you slip into black lingo?
"we gunna start callin ya" just a question.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#63 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 1:26 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
DrMaddVibe

plase understand, toby and i would not have had an abortion under any circumstances. that is a choice we were lucky enough to not have to face.

"If you knew you only had today to live would you really choose to be "free"? i'm really not sure what you mean. what would be an alternative?
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#64 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 1:39 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
Sonny_LSU

you are contradicting yourself.

you say
"BTW, I am a devote Christian, but [I do not poke my head in the sand of righteousness] as life passes by."

but
"It was aimed at [those who have lost their way in the name of God's will."]

have i lost my way? am i doomed to hell? as i have posted before, i have no interest in a definition of anyone's idea of a god, divine force or whatever the terms are that describe the same idea.



DrMaddVibe Offline
#65 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 3:54 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,513
ric, I was responding to this post:

"plabonte

euthanasia only one letter off, no big deal.

euthanasia: it's my damn life and when i think i have had enough and want to end it, it's my business.


i know not what others chose, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death."

eleltea Offline
#66 Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2003, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
Only one of the two human beings involved in an abortion has a choice, and only one of them is innocent. I have never been a fanatic on this issue, but I have very little sympathy for those who use abortion as birth control in a world full of other "choices".
tarheel4lyf Offline
#67 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 3:44 AM EST
Joined: 09-23-2002
Posts: 2,543
I have never really given much thought to the abortion/anti-abortion/choice issue, but it brings to things to mind given my current situation. I agree with SteveS, when I say that I disagree with getting an abortion for convenience. My wife and I have a 5 year old daughter. She will be our only child, due to my wife having large fibroid tumors, and will have to have a hysterectomy(sp). We are only 28 years old, and now we can no longer have any more children. This saddens us both, because we still have a long life together, and we now know that our family will not get any bigger. This may sound selfish, but how would you feel when you have to explain to your 5 year old that she will never be able to have any baby brothers/sisters. She asks us all the time about having one. It hurts us so try to tell her about it.

Anyways, carry on with the discussion. Pardon the interruption.
plabonte Offline
#68 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 4:14 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
You are right eleltea, a woman who is rapped and becomes pregnant is never innocent.
E-Chick Offline
#69 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 9:26 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
NO Plabonte, you are wrong...it depends on what she is wearing.
plabonte Offline
#70 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 9:32 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
I see. So I'm guessing that the amount of innocence is in direct correlation to the amount of clothes she is wearing.
E-Chick Offline
#71 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 9:36 AM EST
Joined: 06-15-2002
Posts: 4,877
Bingo...or at least that's the standard view if/when a woman is raped...couldn't possible be the demented, selfish mind and act of the rapist...but THAT'S another subject!

[stepping down from soapbox]
uncleb Offline
#72 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 9:55 AM EST
Joined: 11-13-2002
Posts: 1,326
tarheel,

Just a question. Have you and your wife thought about adoption? It sounds like you guy's would like to have more kids and this is an option and also helps those mother's that have chosen to go through the pregnancy. Just wondering and don't mean to pry.

B.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#73 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 12:38 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,513
Just be careful when doing this. Deal with HONEST and REPUTABLE agencies. There are a lot of countries that are dumping their "crack babies" and HIV+ kids on the unsuspecting. I'm not saying go for this option, just know the RISKS involved!

If you're both committed to having kids, but physically can't, then I would look at this as an option. Just be careful!
Sonny_LSU Offline
#74 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 1:14 PM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
Rick, you Bad Frog you, I am not contradicting myself. My point of view is that of a "down to earth" Christian.....When I refer to religious zealots, I am not labeling ALL Christians as zealots, as I am not one.
Sonny_LSU Offline
#75 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 1:16 PM EST
Joined: 11-21-2002
Posts: 1,835
Rick, from this point on Jake will be joining this thread in my stead.....he is my lab.....DMV knows all about him.
eleltea Offline
#76 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 2:17 PM EST
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
Ok, Plabonte, being as I am not a fanatic on the issue, you can kill the innocent child of the innocent rape victim if you want to (even tho the world is full of people who would love to adopt it). But don't you have any other examples, with or without the sarcasm?
tailgater Offline
#77 Posted: Thu, Feb 13 2003, 6:26 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Tarheel.
My wife is only a few years older than yours and she had a hysterectomy last year.
We were lucky, we already have three beautiful children. But it's still a very tough ordeal, knowing that you can't have any more kids at such a young age.
If you or your wife have any questions or concerns email me at [email protected]
I'm pretty much brain dead, but my wife can speak from experience to calm any fears.
Good luck and God Bless.
Joe.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#78 Posted: Fri, Feb 14 2003, 12:12 AM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
DrMaddVibe

"The womb is an environment for the baby".

stopped me in my tracks. much food for thought.
plabonte Offline
#79 Posted: Fri, Feb 14 2003, 5:58 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
eleltea I'm not going to sit here and say each and ever case where abortion is ok and not ok. Simply because I really don't know. My point is only that IMHO in SOME cases it is justified. And I just wanted those that were saying it is 100% wrong all the time to think beyond the scenario of the 17 year old who gets pregnant and rather then telling her parents decides to get an abortion.

As far as people willing to adopt the baby yes there are always such people. But just because there are people that need/want kidneys doesn't mean you can force someone to give them one of theirs. Same thing hold true here. Just because someone may want the child doesn't mean you can force the mother to carry it to term and deliver it.

eleltea Offline
#80 Posted: Fri, Feb 14 2003, 6:26 AM EST
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
That's more like it, Plabonte. The case of rape-pregnancy is perhaps the closest to a good argument for an abortion. And surely medical abortions are better than hatpins in an alley, but those are not the only two options, and education, as usual, is key.

I don't know the numbers, but would dare to assume that rape-induced pregnancies are more rare than the partial birth abortion, which bloody horror is the best argument on the other side against abortion. Both sides of this endless argument are firmly entrenched, and a debate can only win over the fencesitters.

Still, the premise that the child is an innocent, even if fathered by a rapist, is true, prima facie.

And after the passage of time, there are a lot more women who regret having had abortions than who regret not having had one. My late wife was one such person. She was coerced by her first husband into aborting her second son and she never had another child.

By the way, the Roe in Roe versus Wade is also one such person of regret. Hindsight is always 20-20.

plabonte Offline
#81 Posted: Fri, Feb 14 2003, 6:48 AM EST
Joined: 09-11-2000
Posts: 2,131
Agreed. But are there more women who are content that they got an abortion then those that regret having one?
rayder1 Offline
#82 Posted: Fri, Feb 14 2003, 8:09 AM EST
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
Nope nope nope.

Not touching this thread...no way. Just helping it on it's way to 100 posts.

Enjoy.
eleltea Offline
#83 Posted: Fri, Feb 14 2003, 6:17 PM EST
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
Plabonte. Maybe. I would like to see that survey. But where could you find a neutral group to conduct it?
tailgater Offline
#84 Posted: Sun, Feb 16 2003, 3:15 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Nobody (at least on this forum) feel that abortions are "good".
The debate is the legality of them.
Extremists aside, the debate is centered around the right of the woman/girl to do whatever they want to their own body, despite the consequences.
I am 100% against abortions, but I can not truly suggest that they should be illegal per se. Why? Because making them illegal will never stop them from happening.
But I can not sit idle while the nation of do-gooders continue to desensitize the world into believing it is a "choice". Something you wake up one morning and decide to do at lunchtime.
Healthcare should not cover it, as it should not cover any elective surgery. (unless the mothers life is in danger). Young girls should require parental consent. Known fathers need to be informed prior to the procedure.
This is a subject that nobody should skirt around. But both sides have become extremely polar in their stance.
Pro-lifers are on a crusade to make any and all abortions illegal, and the pro-choice ilk are determined to make quiky-marts for abortions available on every corner.
A babies life is not a "choice".
We should treat it better than that, even if the decision is made to stop the beating heart.
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