pmn1
  • pmn1
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
Thursday, February 5, 2009 7:44:00 AM
I would like to see more Economists debating the issue on TV. I Frankly don't care what the political pundits think about the stimulus bill - I care what the economists think. Whats your take?
probuilt
Thursday, February 5, 2009 7:52:00 AM
My wife likes my stimulus package.

She told me not to talk about it though.

Least not in mixed company.

rfenst
Thursday, February 5, 2009 7:54:00 AM
LOL!
neopuritan
Thursday, February 5, 2009 8:24:00 AM
Even the economists don't know what to do with something of this proportion.
DrMaddVibe
Thursday, February 5, 2009 8:26:00 AM
Real economists don't like it.

They took out full page ads stating that too!

donutboy2000
Thursday, February 5, 2009 10:50:00 AM
(CBS) An unusual aspect of the recent debate in Washington is the lengths that supporters have gone to marginalize anyone who questions the so-called stimulus plan.

Robert Reich, Bill Clinton's labor secretary and member of President Obama's transition team, claims "almost every economist will tell you the stimulus has to be massive." Nobel laureate and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman accuses skeptics of "making totally non-serious arguments."

Sen. Chuck Schumer, a New York Democrat, says "economists agree" that doling out large sums to state governments is "effective." Vice President Joe Biden says that "every economist that I've spoken to" believes the spending package "has to be big."

Perhaps the vice president should broaden his social circles. The truth is that, instead of being uniformly in favor of the massive spending bill, which is being championed by congressional Democrats with Obama's support, economists remain divided.

You may have heard that respectable economists, including Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, say stimulus spending should be high or higher. But some news organizations have been less than diligent in telling you that other respectable economists are deeply skeptical of the idea, flatly oppose it or favor competing proposals such as additional tax relief.

The University of Chicago's Gary Becker, another Nobel laureate, warns that "the true value of these government programs may be limited because they will be put together hastily, and are likely to contain a lot of political pork and other inefficiencies." Becker says that in that case, spending could do more harm than good.

Naturally, the process of porkification already is underway. An analysis by taxpayer group Americans for Limited Government shows the $825 billion bill includes $200 million for beautification of the National Mall and millions for new cars for federal bureaucrats. Then there's the flap over contraceptive-related spending. If cars and condoms qualify as emergency "stimulus" spending, what doesn't?

Some of Becker's colleagues are more emphatic. John Cochrane, a finance professor at the University of Chicago's business school, published a detailed paper this week on the topic. He sketches an argument for lower taxes right now - instead of higher spending - while simultaneously whittling down the budget deficit.

Another option, he says, would be for the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury to print more money and issue more bonds. Cochrane writes: "Some economists tell me, 'Yes, all our models, data, and analysis for the last 40 years say fiscal stimulus doesn’t work, but don’t you really believe it anyway?' This is an astonishing attitude. How can a scientist 'believe' something different than what he or she spends a career writing and teaching? At a minimum policy-makers shouldn’t put much weight on such 'beliefs,' since they explicitly don’t represent expert scientific inquiry."

New York University's Thomas Sargent says, according to the Chicago Tribune: "The calculations that I have seen supporting the stimulus package are back-of-the-envelope ones that ignore what we have learned in the last 60 years of macroeconomic research."

The Cato Institute, a non-partisan think tank that takes broadly free-market views, was frustrated enough by the conventional wisdom in Washington that it took out a full-page ad on page 11 of the New York Times on Wednesday. The ad, which will also appear in Roll Call magazine and Thursday's Washington Post, is signed by scores of economists and says "we do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance."

Greg Mankiw, a Harvard economics professor who was chairman of George W. Bush's Council of Economics Advisors, is a self-described stimulus skeptic; he recently pointed out the Democratic Congress' own budget office says that only 8 percent of the proposed "stimulus" spending will take place in the 2009 fiscal year.

I could go on, but you get the idea. These statements add up to an important conclusion that has received too little attention: Many of the nation's top economists believe the deficit spending Washington is rushing to enact simply will not work. Instead of proving to be a potent stimulus, the legislation could prove to be a mild depressant.

Keynesianism was in fact not a good theory.

Don Boudreaux

George Mason University

Remember, the stimulus cash has to come from somewhere. If taxes are raised, people will be poorer. If the money is borrowed, it must be paid back with interest, and anyone lending to the U.S. Treasury has less to spend on other items. As in other parts of life, there's no free lunch.

Don Boudreaux, the chairman of the economics department at George Mason University and contributor to CafeHayek.com, pointed out in an interview this week that economists still agree on many topics, such as the benefits of free trade and the harmful effects of price controls.

"Keynesianism was in fact not a good theory," Boudreaux says, referring to the theories of the late economist John Maynard Keynes that encourage government spending. "In the profession, Keynesianism was almost dead until the past few months. It was never dead in the popular mind. It's a flat Earth kind of theory. People look out and see the Earth looks flat, so it must be flat. By and large, macroeconomists rejected at least the standard Keynesian line. Now it's back and that's a real mystery."

He adds: "I think one of the fears is that the perception of the size of the downturn is so intense that even among professional economists, a lot of prudent, careful thought has gone out of the window: 'Geez, we have to do something...' The problem is not some kind of sudden lack of consumer confidence. The problem is that the bubble burst."

Boudreaux and the other economists who are skeptical of stimulus spending may, as I tend to believe, be right. They may be wrong. But the arguments are not as one-sided, and the truth is more complicated, than stimulus proponents would have you believe.

DrMaddVibe
Thursday, February 5, 2009 11:00:00 AM
jackconrad
Thursday, February 5, 2009 11:09:00 AM
It is weak. They need much larger tax credits for buying American goods and services.
DrMaddVibe
Thursday, February 5, 2009 11:12:00 AM
Jack, that would start an international trade war and make things worse.
HockeyDad
Thursday, February 5, 2009 11:57:00 AM
Don't piss off China.
ducati996
Thursday, February 5, 2009 3:34:00 PM
two words......Smoot-Hawley
ducati996
Thursday, February 5, 2009 3:39:00 PM
The "Buy American" piece is the WORST thing that can happen.

It has been proven time and again that protectionism kills an economy, especially in a recession.

Besides, American cars suck, why would I want to waste my money on an inferior product?

I shouldn't be penalized for wanting to get the best for my hard-earned money. Don't reward poor management (GM) with tariffs.

donutboy2000
Thursday, February 5, 2009 3:57:00 PM
Obama owes the unions big time so this should be interesting.
tailgater
Thursday, February 5, 2009 6:49:00 PM
Politicians need to think outside the box.

The republicans only want tax cuts.

The Dems apparently want to spend money in record amounts without regards to how or even IF it will stimulate the economy.

Protectionism can hinder an economy, but can't there be other alternatives?

Why not pass a bill that any government spending that affects our National Safety has to be made right here in the good ol U S of A?

The rest of the world can't fault us for wanting to keep the saftey of our nation close at hand, can they?

This will CREATE jobs in America without spending an additional dime since the money would have otherwise gone to another country.

Instead, all we get is $5B for Acorn and another $300B for various pork products.

And if we dare speak up and let the emporer know he has no clothes? We're accused of making matters worse.

Right now, Obama and his crew are demanding that the bill pass the senate. Because apparently a bad bill is better than no bill at all.

Change.

has

come

donutboy2000
Friday, February 6, 2009 12:54:00 PM
CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

President Barack Obama speaks to the House Democratic Issues Conference on Thursday in Williamsburg. Associated Press

President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

washigtontimes

plinytheelder
Friday, February 6, 2009 9:44:00 PM
While you guys rag on Obama, I did some reading about the Bush stimulus package.

Did you guys know the companies are paying dividends on the money given?

I didn't.

Did you also know that the DoT overpaid for some of the assets they took over? They got fleeced by the Corporations.

Every penny over the actual cost of the assets transfered should be returned.

Thats why it doesn't matter WHO decides where the MONEY goes, or what its used for, THERE HAS TO BE SOME ACCOUNTABLILITY INVOLVED.

Doing another Paulson, "I'm the final authority and I can't be questioned or held accountable to anyone else", is something that the American public had better be vocal about.

1Usahog
Friday, February 6, 2009 9:58:00 PM
I didn't read through all the debutrab (sp) an pardon my french...

But I'll tell you this,

when we got medicines pressed across broadcast stations ( I believe its Monday coming) an you see a push in buy this/ buy that.. your **** will get longer and stronger.. don't worry bout the side effects, an then your driving to work an see signs that say, new construction site going in, or a place you pass everyday say's... soon to be some healthcare facility? doesn't a lightbulb go off in your head?

When I was growing up... there were gas stations competing for business across from one another... nowadays we have health clinics poping up and you got problems????

OK

donutboy2000
Saturday, February 7, 2009 12:46:00 PM
#16

So the Dem controlled Congress got fooled by stupid GWB again?