RICKAMAVEN
15 years ago
[color=darkred]
1. Is the West Bank including East Jerusalem part of Greater Israel.
2. Should arabs be expelled from Israel to form an ethnically pure state.
3. Should Israel have built Jewish settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank to colonize it.
4. Should Israel continue building Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

1 Jerusalem was supposed be an open city but jewish people were hot allowed to visit the west wall,
the only reminder of the last temple.

2 no. no oine will prevent them from visiting their holy sights.

3. i beliee we built homes on indiam land after we gave them infected blankets.

[size=9][color=darkred]4. i don't know. should we have built forts, and used barbed wire on indian land and killed most of their meat source
HockeyDad
15 years ago
Frank,

I see you still struggling with the West Bank settlements and I feel your pain.

It wasn't a planned land grab. Accidental land grab maybe! Maybe there just wasn't enough gasoline for the army to leave and they've been trying to save up for gas money for 43 years.

Israel's goal is not to own it all. Maybe the settlers in the West Bank were just visiting and ran out of gas and had no choice but to build new towns and subdivisions for a few hundred thousand Israeli Jews.


The whole problem might just be a lack of gas stations in the West Bank.

HockeyDad
15 years ago
Rick,

If how the USA treated Indians can be used as justification, I suppose it also could be used as justification for how the Nazis treated the Jews in Europe. Or how the Romans treated the Jews during the siege of Jerusalem.

Although perhaps the West Bank could be turned into a giant Palestinian Reservation with casinos.
DrafterX
15 years ago


Although perhaps the West Bank could be turned into a giant Palestinian Reservation with casinos.

HockeyDad wrote:






the casinos would provide plenty of job opportunties also... maybe they could get the Somali Pirates to work for them...👍
bloody spaniard
15 years ago
Quick observations: Palestinians are generally hated (or ignored) more than any other group in the Middle East besides the Iraelis.
Jordan is majority Palestinian and most Palestinians are of Jordanian extraction. Wonder why the Palestinians insist on a second homeland *AND what's in it for the arabs to support the cause of a group they hate almost as much as they hate the Jews? :-k



*edited
topper7788
15 years ago

Quick observations: Palestinians are generally hated (or ignored) more than any other group in the Middle East besides the Iraelis.
Jordan is majority Palestinian and most Palestinians are of Jordanian extraction. Wonder why the Palestinians insist on a second homeland?:-k

bloody spaniard wrote:



Exactly ! But it's much easier to blame the Israelies
HockeyDad
15 years ago

Quick observations: Palestinians are generally hated (or ignored) more than any other group in the Middle East besides the Iraelis.
Jordan is majority Palestinian and most Palestinians are of Jordanian extraction. Wonder why the Palestinians insist on a second homeland *AND what's in it for the arabs to support the cause of a group they hate almost as much as they hate the Jews? :-k

bloody spaniard wrote:





Jordan is not majority Palestinian and is not ruled by Palestinians. The Palestinians did try to change that during Black September in 1970. When it comes right down to it, you've got Arabs, Bedouins, and a line drawn in the sand by the British.

There are movements under way right now to have Jordan declared as the Palestinian nation. It is an idea that has been around for a while. The problem with it is it is also associated with forced relocation of Palestinian Arabs from Israel, Judea, and Samaria and this is considered ethnic cleansing and is a war crime and the USA bombs nations for doing this.

This is why I asked: "Should Arabs be expelled from Israel to form an ethnically pure state."


This would be the equivalent to answering "yes" to all four of the questions posed and mean this is the only solution for an Israeli approved peace.


By the way, Queen Rania of Jordan is smoking hot and Jordan is a close American ally.
bloody spaniard
15 years ago
Palestinians not a majority in Jordan?
I'd heard that up to 70% of the population consider themselves to be Palestinian. Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, that he, Palestinians, and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.



Wikipedia: "In 1949, Trans-Jordan officially changed its name to Jordan; in 1950, it annexed the West Bank of the Jordan River, and brought Palestinian representation into the government.

At the time, the population east of the Jordan River contained over 400,000 Palestinian refugees who made up one-third of the population; another third of the population was Palestinians on the West Bank. Only one third of the population consisted of the original inhabitants of Trans-Jordan, which meant that the Jordanians had become a ruling minority over a Palestinian majority. This proved to be a mercurial element..."




...and yes I knew that the ruling Hashemite kingdom, quashed the PLO rebellion & killed up to 10,000 in 1970. It was in all the papers...

frankj1
15 years ago
By the way, Queen Rania of Jordan is smoking hot and Jordan is a close American ally.

Is she the Queen who is really American born?

Re: #45- Bloody, very close but I believe a bit reversed...most Palestinians began as Jordanians (no one liked my term "Jordan's Gypsies" last week). Jordanians are Jordanian. Quite a while back I did blame Jordan for creating Palestinians, not that it matters today. There really was never a nation named Palestine, but the area became generally known as Palestine (I believe the Romans favored the term) while the Jews were in exile. Yes, many Arabs despise them but see value in that they do a nice job discrediting Israel and are decent human shields. And they have been turning down a new Palestine since 1948. I know you said you had a lot to consider a couple of weeks ago and I am glad to see you have done some research.

HD- if and when this is all settled, the settlers will be forcibly removed from many of the settlements and/or their homes will be bulldozed by the Israeli Army...as we have seen Israel willingly do in the past. But your nonsense of relocating 5 mil Palestinians and ethnic cleansing to protect a Jewish state...I'm going to assume you are being playful. Many Arabs and others are accepted citizens of Israel, they vote, run for office, go to school, earn livings etc

The fear of fast growing Arab population is not a new subject, it was brought up several years ago and in fact has been suggested as the answer to why there has not been a successful peace plan with a Palestinian state: They will just wait for enough generations to pass until they are the majority. Supposely there are those that believe this is the real plan...to just wait and never settle with Israel. I do not believe it but maybe some do. Israel is an attractive turnkey operation though, much better to take over than to try to do all that frigging desert irrigating etc.

bloody spaniard
15 years ago
Thanks Frank, but no, aside from the wikipedia blurb, hadn't done any research- just relying on my misfiring brain cells.
Don't know how the true makeup of the Jordanian population can be determined accurately however... Seems to me that Jordan should be carved up & a share given to the "Palestinians" vs. taking land from tiny Israel. Having said that, I don't think that'll satiate arab hunger to eradicate Israel.

I know that war is inevitable (again) even if concessions are made. I also know that we can't afford to sustain current foreign aid to anyone in the Middle East... and that God will protect his chosen people with or w/o American intervention.
As a Christian I feel a strong bond with my Jewish brothers.

(excuse my silly avatar)
HockeyDad
15 years ago
So if Jordan contributes land for a Palestine and not tiny Israel, does that mean Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza and anyone there now becomes full Israeli citizens?

I can see a flaw in the idea......
RICKAMAVEN
15 years ago
HOCKEYDAD

fyi


Arab Israelis

Israel is home to a highly diverse population from many different ethnic, religious, cultural and social backgrounds. Of its 6.3 million citizens, over one million, constituting nearly 20 percent of Israel's population, are not Jewish. Almost all are Arab Israelis, mainly residents from before the establishment of the State of Israel or their descendants.
The Arab Israeli Sector:

Although defined collectively as Arab citizens of Israel, the Arab Israeli sector includes a number of different groups - primarily Arabic-speaking - each with its distinct identity.

Muslim Arabs, the largest group, constitute three-quarters of the Arab Israeli sector and most are Sunni Muslims. Nearly one-tenth of Israel's Muslim Arabs are Bedouins, formerly nomadic shepherds. Christian Arabs form the second largest group in the Arab Israeli sector. Although many denominations are nominally represented, the majority of the Christian Arabs are affiliated with the Greek Catholic, Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches. The Druze, some 100,000 Arabic-speakers living in 22 villages in northern Israel, are a separate cultural, social and religious community. The Circassians, comprising some 3,000 people, are Sunni Muslims, although they share neither the Arab origin nor the cultural background of the larger Islamic community. While maintaining a distinct ethnic identity, they participate in Israel's economic and national affairs without assimilating either into Jewish society or into the general Muslim community.
Legal and Political Status:

Arab Israelis are citizens of the Israel with equal rights. In 1948, Israel's Declaration of Independence called upon the Arab inhabitants of Israel to "participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions".

The political involvement of the Arab sector is manifested through both national and municipal elections. Arab citizens run the political and administrative affairs of their own municipalities and advance Arab interests through their elected representatives in the Knesset, Israel's parliament. Arab Israelis have also held various government positions, including that of deputy minister. At present a member of the Druze community is serving as a government minister.

The Declaration also promises that Israel will "ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex" and guarantees "freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture".

Israel has extensive anti-discrimination laws. Moreover, since the founding of the State, the status of Arab Israeli women has been significantly improved by legislation stipulating equal rights for women and prohibition of polygamy and child marriage. Israel remains one of the few countries in the Middle East where women enjoy equality in rights and personal freedoms, including the right to vote and be elected to local and national office.

The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). This exemption was made out of consideration for their family, religious and cultural affiliations with the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world, given the on-going conflict. Still, volunteer military service is encouraged and IDF service was made mandatory for Druze and Circassian men at the request of their community leaders.
HockeyDad
15 years ago
Rick,

That copy-n-paste isn't even relevant to the situation unless you are saying that you are in favor of a one-state solution and that Israel should annex the West Bank and Gaza and everyone there now becomes full Israeli citizens.

I'll support the one state solution, any other takers?
HockeyDad
15 years ago
Meanwhile protesters are gunned down in Syria, protests in Jordan turn violent, US defense secretary Gates visited Israel and told them they had better get off their azz and get ahead on the arab world turmoil, and a Facebook page now exists calling for another Intifada.

Israel's response to all this is to ask Facebook to remove the page.
jackconrad
15 years ago
lll
(_` )_('>
(__,~_)8
_YY_ Passover da Gravy Please..
rfenst
15 years ago

Meanwhile protesters are gunned down in Syria, protests in Jordan turn violent, US defense secretary Gates visited Israel and told them they had better get off their azz and get ahead on the arab world turmoil, and a Facebook page now exists calling for another Intifada.

Israel's response to all this is to ask Facebook to remove the page.

HockeyDad wrote:




No doubt Gates urged renewed joint peace efforts, particularly in light of changing dynamics created by recent Arab political upheaval. No doubt that he also urged restraint in reprisal for the recent torrent of rockets launched from Gaza towards Israeli citizen targets and for the terrorist bus attack in Jerusalem that killed and injured dozens. Do you have a cite for the twist for your "Israel isn't doing anything" spin on it?
HockeyDad
15 years ago
I didn't say Israel wasn't doing anything. They asked Facebook to remove the page. Facebook, Twitter and social media in general have been key to the uprisings in Tunisa, Egypt, Labya, and Bahrain and Israel takes the threat seriously.

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=213886 

After the five Israeli settlers were murdered in Itamar, the next day Israel announced that 500 new West Bank settlement homes were approved in retaliation.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/13/501364/main20042701.shtml 

....and the Nakba Law was passed.

http://jta.org/news/article/2011/03/23/3086536/knesset-passes-nakba-law 
HockeyDad
15 years ago
Not everybody was happy with the 500 new West Bank homes approved. Some wanted 1000 per dead settler from the attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/yishai-israel-must-build-1-000-new-units-in-settlements-for-every-person-murdered-1.348879 
HockeyDad
15 years ago
Israel also deployed the brand-new Iron Dome anti missile defense system on Friday near Gaza.

This system was built by an Israeli defense company and fully paid for with US tax dollars. Obama is trying to appropriate another $200 million USD so Israel can buy more.

Each battery costs around $100 million USD and has 20 missles.
frankj1
15 years ago

Rick,

That copy-n-paste isn't even relevant to the situation unless you are saying that you are in favor of a one-state solution and that Israel should annex the West Bank and Gaza and everyone there now becomes full Israeli citizens.

I'll support the one state solution, any other takers?

HockeyDad wrote:


I believe Rick's post is extremely relevant, though it does counter much of the picture you have been painting. It helps the readers understand what really goes on in that part of the world, especially if they have been forming their opinions based on posts likening Israelis to racist, ethic cleansing neo-nazis. Waldheim (check out his early years!) and Arafat planted that seed in the UN.

It allows the thought that perhaps only certain segments of Arab society are what Israel needs to be vigilant against and that if those segments adopt the belief system of mainstream Islam, a meaningful and trustworthy peace could happen. But silent, moderate, decent, peace loving Muslims MUST step up to the plate.

It also allows the less informed among us to ponder how life would be if the Arabs had control instead. No one in their right mind would dare say Israelis/Jews would have the freedoms guaranteed to Arab Israelis. Though Jews are not allowed in many major Arab cities, Arabs may enjoy the benefits of Israeli citizenship. Ask me about my Jewish friends who's family lived in Egypt for centuries.

It also does show that Israelis are a pretty sad bunch of Stalag guards, n'est-ce pas?
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