ZRX1200
15 years ago
Hamas has never used already dead bodies or killed anyone to pose after Israeli air strikes. Or hidden in ambulances.......
DrMaddVibe
15 years ago
Please pass the grape jelly!
Papachristou
15 years ago
Iran only wants peace!
rfenst
15 years ago

The 1967 war was a surprise attack by Israel on Arab neighbors ... and Israel's gains in 1967 are still not recognized by the international community.

HockeyDad wrote:



Sure, the Israelis struck Egypt first. By surprise. But, that in and of itself does not make doing so wrong. Neither does firing the first round of the war. From a pro-Israel perspective, attacking Egypt was justified because Egypt had begun amassing troops on the Israel Egyptian border, which was interpreted as a major threat, which justified attacking first.

As to the West Bank and the capture of the Temple Mount and ancient Jerusalem. That was not part of the original plan. However, from a pro-Israel perspective, Jordan, which controlled the West bank at the time, had a security agreement with Egypt which involved reciprocal agreements to defend one another should either find itself at war with Israel. Pro Israel "facts" include that Jordan began sending troops towards the Egyptians to aid them. Jordan also began began shelling parts of Jerusalem and areas close to Tel Aviv. Israel implored Jordan not to get involved, but Jordan refused replying to the effect that: "the die was already cast" by then and ramped up on its side.

As to the Golan, the "fact" is that Syria came into the war late, but began its involvement by shelling down from The Heights onto Israeli kibbutzim (collective farming and communities).

From a pro-Israel perspective, the above version of events/history are considered sufficient reasons for Israel to attack first (as opposed to "starting it"). On the other hand, a pro-Arab perspective would dispute the accuracy of every aspect of the the version above. It would pretty much deny these "facts" and would add different perspectives on the events and "facts" allegedly omitted above.

The bottom line of what I am trying to say here is that not much, if anything, can even be agreed upon regarding the (1967) Six-Day War, which occurred some 40+ years ago. No one really knows what the "honest to god" historical truth is, or is likely even capable of determining it. In my opinion, people make up their mind about which side they support and then believe only those sets of "facts" that justify whatever they have already made their mind up about.

The bottom line is that Israel will never voluntarily give up control of The Temple Mount or Western Wall and Arabs will never give up control of the Dome of the Rock (which Jews and Christians have a claim to as well. I believe that this is the true essence to the problem, which will never be resolved before there is another war. Thus, I truly and sadly believe that there will NEVER be a lasting peace because neither side can forget about the past and put it behind themselves.


Papachristou
15 years ago
why cant they just go to work, go home, have a beer and watch tv like americans?
HockeyDad
15 years ago
The 1967 war isn't about right or wrong. War was brewing and Israel launched a surprise attack and kicked ass. It was brilliant and executed perfectly. The problem is war that results in territorial gain no longer results in international recognition of that gain and after 40 years it is pretty clear that Israel has had some difficulty with returning that territory. The West Bank settlements are the icing on the cake.

If it were me, I would have accidentally destroyed the Dome of the Rock and then build the Third Temple.

This fall, UN recognition of a Palestinian state based on pre-1967 borders. It is coming. An Israeli-Palestinian Authority peace in the West Bank that results in land swaps, some relocation of Jewish settlements, and a East Jerusalem for Palestine would head off the storm on the horizon.

Israel has had a good run since 1948 but I'm not in favor of trying to go 5-0. The previous 3000 years pretty much sucked for Israel and the Jews.




topper7788
15 years ago
HD

5 and 0, I don't think that's a issue problem, Israel has the ability to take on anyone or all if nessasary. The true question isn't can it win... Sure it can, the question if a major war breaks out is at what cost... FOR EVERYONE on both sides involved and the west....

Passover is around the corner, the seder ends with the words "next year in Jerusalem" ...........

RICKAMAVEN
15 years ago


it's a shame hitler didn't win. the world could have solved the jew problem permanently.
HockeyDad
15 years ago
Topper,

The problem with playing for 5-0 isn't can Israel win, all smart money will bet on Israel. The problem is then they have to go for 6-0, 7-0, 8-0, etc. What if Israel goes 9-1, will there still be an Israel.

Egypt, Syria, and Jordan are all 0-4 but still exist and they could go 0-5 and would still exist. Heck, Lebanon is 0-6 and still exists.
topper7788
15 years ago
HD,

Very true. And there lies the difference, as Israel has always ackowledged the other sides right to exist....

The only question is boarders, security etc...

Simple don't ya think? The other side makes a mistake, they lose some land, maybe a couple of towns. Israel losses and well no country and no place to go.... Heck the Arab countries could have handled and solved the "Palestinian issue" if they actually wanted to.....The poor "Palestinians" have been the pawns in the Mideast since 1948....
HockeyDad
15 years ago
Rick,

Save your drama queen antics and go paint your house.
HockeyDad
15 years ago
Topper,

Whenever I hear someone say the arab countries could have handled the Palestinian issue, it always translates to the arab countries could have packed up and moved the millions of Palestinians to some piece of land in some other arab country like Jordan so that Israel could have the entire West Bank to create Greater Israel with an ethnically pure Jewish nation. The Palestinians don't want to leave.

Is that what you mean?

I'm not saying I couldn't be in favor of ethnic cleansing and forced relocation (it does work) but when you're moving 5 million people, it is quite obvious.
HockeyDad
15 years ago
Israel could also just annex the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip, declare everyone citizens, and give them full rights including voting.

Egypt and Jordan relinquished their right to that land so all it would need is a little international blessing.
jojoc
15 years ago

Israel could also just annex the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip, declare everyone citizens, and give them full rights including voting.

Egypt and Jordan relinquished their right to that land so all it would need is a little international blessing.

HockeyDad wrote:




don't you mean "declare everyone as non-voting citizens?
topper7788
15 years ago

Topper,

Whenever I hear someone say the arab countries could have handled the Palestinian issue, it always translates to the arab countries could have packed up and moved the millions of Palestinians to some piece of land in some other arab country like Jordan so that Israel could have the entire West Bank to create Greater Israel with an ethnically pure Jewish nation. The Palestinians don't want to leave.

Is that what you mean?

I'm not saying I couldn't be in favor of ethnic cleansing and forced relocation (it does work) but when you're moving 5 million people, it is quite obvious.

HockeyDad wrote:




Well let's see, first they could have accepted those darn 1948 borders? back in well 1948! And yes they could have moved em or pushed for a 2 state solutuion that is acceptable to Israel. HD your an intelligent fellow, I assume you have the Understanding of how and why Israel came to be... I guess the fact that they are 4 and 0 is inconvenient to most is troubling. Truth is the Arab states have used the Palestinians to further there own agendas and for the most part didn't give a sh*t what happened to them.

Time to head out to dinner.... Plus I really don't think we are going to come to an agreement on the issue... Let's discuss let's say abortion, at least there we can have a unemotional discussion!!!🐴

HockeyDad
15 years ago
They could have accepted the 1948 borders. They didn't. Now it is 2011. Israel would not accept those borders now.

The fact that Israel is 4-0 is not inconvenient to most. That is a straw man. Israel is 4-0 because they kicked ass in a number of wars through good military strategy. I would prefer to not see Israel eventually take that first loss.

I am capable of discussing this or abortion unemotionally. I am fully aware of the playbook which makes anything remotely related to Israel's actions or the West Bank. If someone criticizes Israel in any way, they are an anti-Semite. If someone calls for US funding to Israel to be eliminated, they are an anti-Semite. If a Jew, especially and American Jew, does any of this they are a self-loathing Jew that has forgotten their roots. This has been very effective in maintaining US funding and I don't expect that to change because politicians are terrified of these labels. That doesn't make it true or right, just effective. We all know the US will cut funding for school lunches for needy children before we cut funding to Israel for fighter jets and cluster bombs. That is our moral cross to bear.

There are some fundamental questions that have to be answered by Israelis (and American Jews) before there can be peace.

1. Is the West Bank including East Jerusalem part of Greater Israel.
2. Should arabs be expelled from Israel to form an ethnically pure state.
3. Should Israel have built Jewish settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank to colonize it.
4. Should Israel continue building Jewish settlements in the West Bank.


Israel is split on these questions. The American Jewish community is split on these questions. I'm not asking anyone here to answer them. I know how much trouble the answers cause. The answers will drive whether Israel can make peace with the Palestinians or even define what is an acceptable 2 state solution for Israel.

Maybe a bunch more Israelis and Palestinians need to die. I'm OK with that. I just don't want to keep dumping US tax dollars down that pit.
rfenst
15 years ago
^
I have a lengthily answer/reply, but need to proof-read it before posting it later today.

On second thought, it is too lengthy to post and touches too many different issues that probably don't belong being a part of this particular discussion.
topper7788
15 years ago
HD,

Since Robert is writing up a reply and we are generally of the same thinking on Israel, plus quite frankly he is a better writer than I so I will defer to him...

And by the way I don't always agree with what Israel does... I don't for one thing think they should continue building settlements... But it's not my call, it's theirs! I do however think US aid is OK, I don't think someone is an Anti-Semite who believes aid should be ended, just think they are wrong... I do think most people that are anti Israel on almost anything have an issue with Jews... That is just based on personal observation...
frankj1
15 years ago
HockeyDad wrote:
The 1967 war was a surprise attack by Israel on Arab neighbors ... and Israel's gains in 1967 are still not recognized by the international community.


I know Robert gave an answer to this, and I know HD called Israel's "attack" brilliant, but just to set the record straight about attacking first for our faithful readers cuz words shape opinions:

Not only was Egypt positioning massive amounts of troops on the border, not only was Syria positioning between 300 and 500 tanks, but Egypt blockaded the port of Eilat (sp?) which was and would still be considered an act of war. Israel responded by wiping out almost everyone's Air Force... I assume this was the "brilliant" ploy HD references, but it was obviously not what started that war. Clearly it was a pre-emptive strike and was widely accepted as defensive in nature at the time, not a surprise attack with a planned land grab, but a protection of their borders.

Israel needed time to assemble defense against Syria and had roughly one dozen tanks ready to go against the 300-500 Syrian tanks. The veteran Israeli commander insanely ordered his youthful troops and 12 or so tanks to advance, creating enough time for Israel to get support in position to take the strategically located Golan Heights. Israel's losses were hideous, but the tactic worked, the Air Forces were destroyed and the six day march ensued. It was estimated that Israel had enough fuel and supplies in reserve to last 14 days before this act of desperation

As Topper said, more than a few towns are lost if and when Israel loses, but Israel's goal was not and is not to own it all.

History, not opinion.
RICKAMAVEN
15 years ago
HockeyDad

note i took your name off the post after i read a few more of you posts.

now about my house, what the hell do you care if it needs pain or not.

i never thought of you as a nut case
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