rfenst
14 years ago

Here is my beef with the claim/"argument" that Arab/Muslim rights trump all other people's rights in Dearborn: Comparing a single public fair there to a single effort at pamphlaterring outside that fair, per that video, has way too many unrelated, unknown variables, to draw any legitimate conclusions.

Here is my beef with the reliance on the video: It does not substantiate the claim that the rights of Arabs/Muslims supersede non-Arab/non-Muslim rights of any sort. Nor does it substantiate the claim that handing out non-Islamic religious literature to Muslims in Dearborn will lead to arrest. Maybe it will. The video just doesn't come close to showing or proving it.

Here is where I think the disconnect occurred: 1) the right to hold and/or attend a public fair is different than the right to 2) pamphleteer on public property. They are two totally different things. The analysis for each differs. Drawing conclusions from the two, without first separating the two for individual scrutiny/analysis, is not the right way to even begin to analyze the law or its consequences.
HockeyDad
14 years ago

+1

rfenst wrote:





See post #35
rfenst
14 years ago

Would you prefer anti-Vietnam War protests? Anti-Iraq War protests?

All photo-ops that wasted and diverted law enforcement time. I can't recall too many protests that were designed to be stealthy and go unnoticed.

It is just more selective morality. If we think the protest subject was worthwhile, It was not a waste and diversion of law enforcement personnel. If we think the protest was BS, It was a waste and diversion of law enforcement personnel.

HockeyDad wrote:



I have no problem with anyone who wants to protest or demonstrate on public property, provided that there is compliance with respect to proper time and place requirements, if any. I will always have a problem with any protest or demonstration that is thwarted because of the content of the message.
DrMaddVibe
14 years ago

I have no problem with anyone who wants to protest or demonstrate on public property, provided that there is compliance with respect to proper time and place requirements, if any. I will always have a problem with any protest or demonstration that is thwarted because of the content of the message.

rfenst wrote:




Oh, you're gonna LOVE those free speech zones then![whip]
HockeyDad
14 years ago
So the only issue here is that these guys should have had some sort of permit like Westboro Baptist Church always does and then it wouldn't be a waste and diversion of law enforcement.

I wonder how many civil rights, anti-Vietnam permits, and anti-Iraq war protests had proper permits!
HockeyDad
14 years ago
Here is another example of Dearborn that would qualify as NOT a waste and diversion of law enforcement resources because they went to the free speech zone!

rfenst
14 years ago

Here is another example of Dearborn that would qualify as NOT a waste and diversion of law enforcement resources because they went to the free speech zone!

HockeyDad wrote:



Wow!
HockeyDad
14 years ago
Let's see them protest this!

DrMaddVibe
14 years ago

Wow!

rfenst wrote:




Doesn't matter...they'll affect you.

DNC...RNC...WTO...NWO...GET IN YOUR FREE SPEECH ZONE!!!!
🐴
rfenst
14 years ago

Doesn't matter...they'll affect you.

DNC...RNC...WTO...NWO...GET IN YOUR FREE SPEECH ZONE!!!!
🐴

DrMaddVibe wrote:



Huh?
DrMaddVibe
14 years ago

Huh?

rfenst wrote:




Figures...really.

Sooner or later there will be an issue where you will be in a "free speech" zone.
wheelrite
14 years ago

I have no problem with anyone who wants to protest or demonstrate on public property, provided that there is compliance with respect to proper time and place requirements, if any. I will always have a problem with any protest or demonstration that is thwarted because of the content of the message.

rfenst wrote:



So,
a Castrate the Lawyers Rally is ok ?

🍺
frankj1
14 years ago

Would you prefer anti-Vietnam War protests? Anti-Iraq War protests?

All photo-ops that wasted and diverted law enforcement time. I can't recall too many protests that were designed to be stealthy and go unnoticed.

It is just more selective morality. If we think the protest subject was worthwhile, It was not a waste and diversion of law enforcement personnel. If we think the protest was BS, It was a waste and diversion of law enforcement personnel.

HockeyDad wrote:


Might be selective morality to you in the short run, but to me protesting is an integral part of what makes us superior to other societies. Can't allow the bullies to run you off the land. Maybe you need to feel the protest is not BS so as not to waste law enforcement, but to me (rather than have you speak to what I find morally proper) the right to protest (legally and non-violently) is sacred American and is worth the time and money...and that right supercedes my political leanings.

Vigilantly and vigorously protecting the minority opinion keeps us all free, no matter how opposed you may be to that other belief.

As my father said, he served in WWII to protect your right to be wrong. He won. Enjoy it. Allow others the same.
rfenst
14 years ago

So,
a Castrate the Lawyers Rally is ok ?

🍺

wheelrite wrote:



Sure. But, why do we need a rally for that?

More serious and technical: Generally, speech advocating harm to others is not protected...
wheelrite
14 years ago

Sure. But, why do we need a rally for that?

More serious and technical: Generally, speech advocating harm to others is not protected...

rfenst wrote:



I know,,

Fire in a Movie House and all,,
rfenst
14 years ago

Figures...really.

Sooner or later there will be an issue where you will be in a "free speech" zone.

DrMaddVibe wrote:



Already been there many times.
jpotts
14 years ago

They can denounce all they want. Think it will mean anything in terms of fear and concern? Isn't this still a country where our religious beliefs are private? What method and degree of renouncement will suffice to make people more comfortable? How does the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" fit into this? For the sake of discussion, what say you?

rfenst wrote:



Robert, Robert, Robert...

First, this is a country where our religious beliefs can be P-U-B-L-I-C. Usually, private religious beliefs are held in communist countries because...well...if they become public, the people who hold them land in jail.

I can say your people killed Christ, you can say I follow a blaphemeing heretic who got what he deserved, and no one gets their head cut off.

(Not that either you nor I would probably say that, well, except to lob a granade in the discussion.)

That's the whole point of Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Expression, and so on. It scares me a tad that a person who is of the legal profession (read: you) has this "religion is private" point of view.

As for "innocent until proven guilty", that only applies to the government. It does not govern human behavior. Average individuals don't need a jury of 12 people to avoid someone because they come off like a stoner. That's also called Freedom of Association.

Where the point is that Muslims, in general, do not even remotely go out of their way to denounce Islamic terrorism, Islamic terrorists, and in fact many muslims in this country send money overseas to fund this crap. And the Muslim community remains closed, and even circles the wagons around their own simply because they are "their own." It's utterly insane.

Then there are are walking rectums at CAIR who try to shame anyone who dares say anything bad about Islam or Middle Easterners in general. These guys are basically in bed with Hamas. They won't denonce Hamas or Hezzbullah. They tapdance around the subject, and do it with a straight face.

And the pilot is the one here to blame? I don't think so.

A Muslim or a Jew can tell me I'm going to hell day-in and day-out. That's their opinion. It doesn't affect me one way or another. it is part of living in a free society.

But when they start dancing and cheering while people jump to their deaths from the 80th floor, and and using the amorphus US "foreign policy" as a cheap excuse to be a bloodthirsty little barbarian...well...that's when people have a right to vocialize thast the Islamic types "scare" them.

And when you have the ****-swallowers at CAIR excusing or denying this sort of behavior, it doesn't tend to diffuse the concerns of average people.

Maybe if they demanded that others of their ilk stop being a bunch of savage little animals, or *GASP* maybe help capture or kill a few of these little monsters, less average Americans would be "worried" about someone of Arab extraction.

It would also help of a few of the CAIR spokemen were publically humiliated by showing everyone what tiny penisus they really have.

I mean, there were lots of Nordic types out killing Germans in WWI and WWII. And my grandfather was often harassed for having a German-sounding name during WWII...despite the fact that he was an instrumental part of the war effort. You don't hear much about that these days, but it was VERY prevalent back then.

I guess that was a time when there were a few less candy-a**es in the world...like the dim bulbs who populate CAIR.

So, in short, the pilot has a good reason to not like someone of Arab/Islamic extraction.
HockeyDad
14 years ago

Might be selective morality to you in the short run, but to me protesting is an integral part of what makes us superior to other societies. Can't allow the bullies to run you off the land. Maybe you need to feel the protest is not BS so as not to waste law enforcement, but to me (rather than have you speak to what I find morally proper) the right to protest (legally and non-violently) is sacred American and is worth the time and money...and that right supercedes my political leanings.

Vigilantly and vigorously protecting the minority opinion keeps us all free, no matter how opposed you may be to that other belief.

As my father said, he served in WWII to protect your right to be wrong. He won. Enjoy it. Allow others the same.

frankj1 wrote:






Well that's all fine and wonderful sounding......if you have a permit. You don't have a right to protest. You have a right to ask for a permit to protest.....you know...legally and non-violently. That may not quite be what your father actually fought for in WWII.

You're trying to make it sound like all protesting is wonderful, needed, and as American as apple pie but then you sneak in the (legally and non-violently) which gets back to what rfenst said about the Christian extremists in the original post wasting and diverting law enforcement. They didn't have a permit so is it still wonderful, needed, and as American as apple pie? What I have pointed out is plenty of other protests in the recent history of the US that would fail the qualifier of (legally and non-violently) when it is tacked on. Although we look at those protests today and collectively think they were good, they sure did not have permits, they were not legal, they were not always non-violent, and they sure were not limited to the designated free speech zones that you father fought in WWII to protect!

The right to protest (with a government approved permit in a designated free speech zone) is sacred American privilege and is worth the time and money. Doesn't that just kinda sound neutered? It is reality.

rfenst
14 years ago

Robert, Robert, Robert...

First, this is a country where our religious beliefs can be P-U-B-L-I-C. Usually, private religious beliefs are held in communist countries because...well...if they become public, the people who hold them land in jail.

I can say your people killed Christ, you can say I follow a blaphemeing heretic who got what he deserved, and no one gets their head cut off.

(Not that either you nor I would probably say that, well, except to lob a granade in the discussion.)

That's the whole point of Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Expression, and so on. It scares me a tad that a person who is of the legal profession (read: you) has this "religion is private" point of view.

As for "innocent until proven guilty", that only applies to the government. It does not govern human behavior. Average individuals don't need a jury of 12 people to avoid someone because they come off like a stoner. That's also called Freedom of Association.

Where the point is that Muslims, in general, do not even remotely go out of their way to denounce Islamic terrorism, Islamic terrorists, and in fact many muslims in this country send money overseas to fund this crap. And the Muslim community remains closed, and even circles the wagons around their own simply because they are "their own." It's utterly insane.

Then there are are walking rectums at CAIR who try to shame anyone who dares say anything bad about Islam or Middle Easterners in general. These guys are basically in bed with Hamas. They won't denonce Hamas or Hezzbullah. They tapdance around the subject, and do it with a straight face.

And the pilot is the one here to blame? I don't think so.

A Muslim or a Jew can tell me I'm going to hell day-in and day-out. That's their opinion. It doesn't affect me one way or another. it is part of living in a free society.

But when they start dancing and cheering while people jump to their deaths from the 80th floor, and and using the amorphus US "foreign policy" as a cheap excuse to be a bloodthirsty little barbarian...well...that's when people have a right to vocialize thast the Islamic types "scare" them.

And when you have the ****-swallowers at CAIR excusing or denying this sort of behavior, it doesn't tend to diffuse the concerns of average people.

Maybe if they demanded that others of their ilk stop being a bunch of savage little animals, or *GASP* maybe help capture or kill a few of these little monsters, less average Americans would be "worried" about someone of Arab extraction.

It would also help of a few of the CAIR spokemen were publically humiliated by showing everyone what tiny penisus they really have.

I mean, there were lots of Nordic types out killing Germans in WWI and WWII. And my grandfather was often harassed for having a German-sounding name during WWII...despite the fact that he was an instrumental part of the war effort. You don't hear much about that these days, but it was VERY prevalent back then.

I guess that was a time when there were a few less candy-a**es in the world...like the dim bulbs who populate CAIR.

So, in short, the pilot has a good reason to not like someone of Arab/Islamic extraction.

jpotts wrote:





Jeff,

Far be it from you to ever lob a grenade. LOL! But, OK...

A pilot/captain can like whoever he/she wants. No problem there. It is his/her ship.

Yes, in this country our religious beliefs can be made public. I am truly thankful for that. They also aren't required to be public and one has the right not to tell anyone their religious beliefs. Government isn't supposed to punish us for having or not having certain religious beliefs. I am thankful for that too. Better put overall, government is supposed to stay out of our "religious" practices and beliefs, and our religions are not supposed to be factors in government and, as a matter of law, certain social, economic and community matters. One also has the right to keep it to his/her self or not tell anyone their religious beliefs.

Yes, we can say whatever we want to each other concerning religious beliefs within a wide set of boundaries, but I believe there is a social limit/line that common sense often dictates not crossing over. I also don't like it when the religious expression is communicated as or has become a message of hate as opposed to disagreement. This ahas more to do with Freedom of Speech than Freedom of Religion, however. Certainly, it is reasonable that there can be certain time and place restrictions placed on us and others from time to time. That, to me, is incredibly important if not the "lynch-pin", if you will, that makes it all work pretty darn well for us.

Sorry to hear that you are scared when lawyers perceive things differently than some others. it is not because they are lawyers. It is because they simply have a different opinion. But, what I think really scares you is that myself and others don't walk lock-step with you on certain points of view that you hold. We are all probably like that in one way or another and at different times and on different issues. But hey, you are entitled to your opinion!

As to to "innocent until proven guilty", I agree that it applies to court. But, it really goes beyond that legally in non-court settings. but, it is also part of our "social fabric"- a way of thinking, if you will that normally permeates American society as a belief-system.

Look, I too have some major problems with the Muslim-American community as a whole too. I believe that some of what they do/have done is abhorrent and unlawful. I find myself wondering about segments of that community too- believe me. But, I also know that there are plenty of Muslim-Americans who share the same concerns and wish things were different and that their communities would take a stand, but haven't to my satisfaction. On the other hand, i have real-life personal experiences, as I am sure you do too, with Muslim-Americans who I have no concern over whatsoever. And, i am sure you will agree that we all have the same types of other religious groups that do not include the Muslim-American community.

I guess (and again) my real point in this thread is still the same. Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association, are rights that belong to all of us. When one seems to trump an other, one shouldn't be so (pavlovian) quick to exclaim something is critically wrong. One should slow-down, analyze the situation(s), collect as much information as possible and then draw some conclusions- provided one has the facts to do so, instead of jumping to conclusions and working backwards to try to substantiate ones own personal, predetermined, conclusion. Maybe a more direct way to express myself, without attacking anyone in particular, is this: Some people need to really try to understand that rain-drops, no matter how many there seem to be and no matter how hard they are falling, don't mean the sky is always falling.



(BTW, nice of you to join us again/some more.)

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