UAW Gives Union Workers At GM $7K Bonus! · Page 2

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DrMaddVibe
Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter

14 years ago

#21

You have zero (0) idea how many bankruptcies I have been involved in and whether any of them were complex or sophisticated. You have no idea (0) which big-name corporations whose bankruptcies I have represented creditors in. You have no (0) idea that I have been retained by Bankruptcy Trustees and paid to pursuit the bankruptcy estate's interests. You have no (0) idea that my expert opinion has been relied upon by different entities and Trustees in bankruptcies. But, you are right, I don't know how bankruptcy works. (LMFAOAUFOTGHM!)

The answer to your question about how many times is: I don't know. And, I am not even going to try to find out if any ever have and, if so, then how many. The reason is that you have asked a question for which there very highly likely is no answer, the answer would requiring review of every corporate bankruptcy ever filed. Besides, the U.S. government doesn't wipe out bondholder interests. bankruptcy courts can and do all the time.

Here, GM's bond holders were offered a deal,albeit for pennies on the dollar in the form of the new corporations stock/a minor ownership interest, which only some of them took. Those unsecured bondholders who were too hard-headed to see the reality not only lost their money when GM went under, but refused to negotiate and as a result, got nothing at all.
They were among the lowest on the creditors' priority ladder- while at the same time being useless to GM's potential future success. Tough crap to them in terms of the way bankruptcy goes, the public policy/reasoning behind bankruptcy and for not seeing the writimg on the wall and getting out while the getting was good.

rfenst wrote:

I find your answer actually laughable.

You're taking something that's really easy to answer and adding about 200 words that don't need to be there. The mere mention that you want to claim you're an expert and provide no tangible information leads me to believe that you are in fact the last person I'd want to gather info from on this matter.

Deal? Right. More like a dissolution where the price was set by whom? Yeah.

rfenst
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#22

Creative Destruction.........it's a GOOD thing.

🌫

Stinkdyr wrote:

Like when you have a cancerous tumor that is cut out, chemotherapeuticly bombarded or irradiated to death? No, that is NOT a good thing at all.

rfenst
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#23

DrMaddVibe wrote:

Oh, don't go throwing a bunch of crappy issues out at us then complain when we don't address one the way you like. That is a bunch of crap called a "straw-man". But, you have to have known that because you are the expert on that.

topper7788
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#24

I'm not going to defend the bailout, but it worked and the results are proving it... believe what you want, but a "normal" BK of GM and Chrysler would have been a nightmare..

Guys, many seem to think Ford is some kind of hero company because it chose not to go BK... They did react sooner than the other companies to their credit...

But they did not go BK for ONE REASON... The Ford family would have lost the company.. Ford took early action once the FAMILY decided they where "all in" and wanted to keep the company... that's when things got in motion for them.. They raised cash, sold off all non core assets etc... They certainly deserve much credit, but not for the reason most believe...

BUT don't think for a second that the decision to NOT go the route of GM was any kind of noble action... It was done for ONE REASON only the Ford family interest and control of the Ford Motor Company....

Understand while the family only has a small % of the overall shares, but they control the important voting shares and thereby still control the company... The Ford's were pretty sharp, they raised all kinds of cash back in the day when they took it public but they way it was structured they kept control of the company... And again to their credit seem to want to continue to keep it "in the family" for many years to come.....

ZRX1200
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#25

The stockholders (owners) who failed to supervise and get rid of the directors; and the creditors, particularly those with secured interests, all of whom failed to put GM into involuntary bankruptcy a hell of a lot sooner- in order to protect their interests.

Agreed.

#35 they were given a seat on the board.

ZRX1200
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#26

Here, GM's bond holders were offered a deal,albeit for pennies on the dollar in the form of the new corporations stock/a minor ownership interest, which only some of them took. Those unsecured bondholders who were too hard-headed to see the reality not only lost their money when GM went under, but refused to negotiate and as a result, got nothing at all.

Here I disagree. That wasn't a deal that was rape.

Offering a towel when they're done isn't a deal.

DrMaddVibe
Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter

14 years ago

#27

rfenst wrote:

Sorry you feel that way. Wasn't a bunch either. Just one.

When has the US government wiped away bondholders before? This was unprecedented.

I would think that seeing as how you're a bankruptcy attorney that you'd at least be able to pull a case.

JadeRose
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#28

"It has absolutely nothing to do with what I do or don't get. What we have here is not Capitalism and you'd best recognize it now because your complacent attitude allowed it. When it comes to your sector perhaps you'd think differently about it, but as a nation predicated on laws we've done a disservice."

GADDAM....I didn't realize I had so much power. Yes Johann...I've obviously never had any adversity in my life. I've never watched my parents lose jobs due to plant closings nor have I PERSONALLY ever lost a job due to business failure. Oh....wait a minute......I did both of those things. I guess the difference between you and I is that I do not choose to be a paranoid, ranting ****** that is absolutely incapable of considering that my opinion may not be the best one. Frankly, you're a bore and the only reason I ever bothering reading your rants is because they amuse me.

Thanks for the laughs.

dubleuhb
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#29

topper7788 wrote:

So being pro-active is not commendable? Kicking the can down the road like GM and Chrysler and then letting the government come in to save you when it caught up to is good business ? The UAW had much to do with this, first by the demands in pay and benefit packages that are completely out of line for work performed. It took many years to slowly bring it here but even a pin hole in the bottom of the bucket will drain it. Then the refusal to take cuts to preserve their jobs was selfish on their ( the rank and file) part.
If the Ford family sole purpose was to keep control then so be it, but I doubt that was the entire reason. Who says that is bad business ? The steps they took kept the company afloat worked, and kept their employees working. Should it be more commendable than letting the government come in and get their hands in it ? In my mind absolutely!
I have never been a Ford guy, I live where GM factories are a big part of the economy, they are always in the news here and always need a tax break or grant of some kind to bribe them into adding more jobs. I work right up the road from the plant DMV noted earlier and know many people who work their. I have family that works in another plant and always get the GM discount but last May I bought my last GM vehicle. I will put my money with a company like Ford next time, at least they had the vision to see where they were headed and took steps to keep it working, even if it was just to keep control it worked.
When did it become wrong to want to keep control of a company that bears your family name ? It seems to me that they still have a vision for the company and would rather put their reputation on the line rather than to a bunch of shareholders whose intentions may not be the same.

FuzzNJ
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#30

In case anyone wants to know where these stupid ideas are coming from:

This $170 billion bailout hinged on squeezing last-minute concessions out of private holders of Greek debt. This is the same way Obama bailed out GM and Chrysler.

He went to private individuals who owned bonds as opposed to stock, and Obama told 'em: "Guess what, guys? You are eating the short end on this." The bondholders at first opposed, Obama called 'em greedy, said "everybody has to sacrifice," and the bondholders ended you up taking a bath. The UAW and Obama were the big winners. They had the company handed to them. Now, in Greece, $170 billion bailout hinged on squeezing last-minute concessions out of private holders, individuals of Greek debt. Banks and other investment funds are going to have to forgive $142 billion in debt. Banks and investment funds are just gonna have to write off $142 billion that people owe them.

And furthermore, they have been told that they must forgo profits on their remaining holdings. They've been wiped out! They essentially have been told to take a face-value loss of 53.5% on their bonds. They're gonna have to just forget $142 billion that people owe them and promise to forgo profits on what's left. Luckily, ladies and gentlemen, they're just banks and investment firms that are losing money. They're not really people! Well, isn't that what everybody thinks? Corporation, that's not people. A company isn't people. I've had sniveling little leftists call me here and very snarkily say, "I suppose you're gonna tell me a corporation's people."

Yeah, it is. Without people, there is no corporation.

"Yeah, yeah," and they just lose it.

Banks, investment firms? Ah, they're not really people. No widows or orphans have savings or any investments in banks or investment firms. There aren't any teacher pension funds invested there. No, no, no, they're not real people here! Now, you might think that it's banks and investment funds that are eating it, but who invests with them? Average, ordinary people. Banks and investment firms are people. And they've been told, with a smile, "Guess what? You're wiped out! We're gonna bail out the slothful losers in Greece so they continue to have to do nothing to get their pensions -- and, meanwhile, you're wiped out. You're the one that's gonna pay for it."

They're not really people. No widows or orphans are invested there. Besides, this gonna teach people to invest in Greece, right? You can't wait now! Why do you think the stock market jumped over 13,000 in this country? There aren't too many wise people with skin in the game that want to throw money into Europe right now. Look what happened to people who did! They were just told, "You're eating it, pal. You are gonna soak up $142 billion in debt. You're just gonna give it away, and you are not allowed any profit on the rest of your holdings." That's how it happened in Greece. It could happen here.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/02/21/if_obama_wins_we_re_greece

rfenst
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#31

DrMaddVibe wrote:

Again, the U.S. government did not wipe away that debt.

The bondholders could have gotten something of potential value, albeit minimal on the dollar. Those who refused to play got zipped. They "played chicken" and lost.

From a macro business perspective, they probably would have gotten nothing had there been a straightforward, total liquidation. They were probably the last in line and did not have secured interests.

And, assuming for you that it is a case of first impression, why does that matter? There is nothing wrong in my mind with tailoring the law and social systems to meet modern times.

JadeRose
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#32

OH NOES!!! I FOUND AN ARTICLE FROM LAST OCTOBER ABOUT FORD!!!! THEY HAVE THE AUDACITY TO PAY THEIR UAW EMPLOYEES OVER $16000 IN BONUSES OVER THE COURSE OF THE CONTRACT! THOSE BASTARDS!! HOW DARE THOSE HORRIBLE REDNECK, HILLBILLIE UAW MEMBERS AT FORD MAKE ALL THAT MONEY!! i'M SURE THEY WILL JUST SPEND IT ALL ON LOTTERY, PABST BLUE RIBBON AND METH!!!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/04/us-ford-idUSTRE79328U20111004

Edited by user 14 years ago | Reason: Not specified

rfenst
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#33

That wasn't a deal that was rape. Offering a towel when they're done isn't a deal.

ZRX1200 wrote:

If you look into the general matter just a little further, you will see that bankruptcy courts totally screws creditors over with nothing to pennies on the dollar- every single day.

Someone has to take the hit when liabilities grossly outweigh assets. Those who are last in line, like the bondholders, stake holders who have nothing to offer in the event there is a reorganization and the corporation emerges in a better financial position to succeed- get hurt the worst. It is much cheaper and conceptually easier to screw bondholders than a critical supplier of goods or labor, which will be forced out of business if they take too big of a hit. This, in turn could lead reduced chance of success for the corporation emerging from re-organization. And, that is all just the cost of business and investing these days.

Look, I don't generally advocate not fulfilling obligations, including debt. But, my opinion and reality can be and are very different things- particularly here. The intent of the GM bankruptcy was to allow it to have a chance at survival and future growth that on the whole, would benefit American society greater than simply liquidating the assets would.

"The jury is still out" and we likely won't know the results for several years to a decade or more, but the "profit" is good news for American society on the whole. I just hope it continues and pays-of socially and monetarily via loan repayment to the U.S. government.

Edited by user 14 years ago | Reason: Not specified

JadeRose
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#34

If you look into the general matter just a little further, you will see that bankruptcy courts totally screws creditors over with nothing to pennies on the dollar- every single day.

Someone has to take the hit when liabilities grossly outweigh assets. Those who are last in line, like the bondholders, who have nothing to offer in the event there is a reorganization and the corporation emerges in a better financial position to succeed. It is much cheaper and conceptually to screw bondholders than a critical supplier of goods or labor, which will be forced out of business if they take too big of a hit. This, in turn could lead reduced chance of success for the corporation emerging from re-organization.

Look, I don't generally advocate not fulfilling obligations, including debt. But, my opinion and reality can be and are very different things- particularly here. The intent of the GM bankruptcy was to allow it to have a chance at survival and future growth that on the whole, would benefit American society greater than simply liquidating the assets would.

"The jury is still out" and we likely won't know the results for several years to a decade or more, but the "profit" is good news for American society on the whole. I just hope it continues and pays-of socially and monetarily via loan repayment to the U.S. government.

rfenst wrote:

I'll save DMV the trouble........Shut up, Robert. You're stupid. I am right and you are so dumb as to be pathetic. Please take your life.

You're welcome.

ZRX1200
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#35

Robert its not that I don't see the validity in your argument. And I do hope for success for GM.

Jade I don't harbor ill will towards union members as a whole (though first and second hand experience leave me uh....jaded) and like I said the bonuses themselves don't anger me.

You wont catch me buying a GM product though.

rfenst
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#36

Fuzz,

Just to add a little bit more: Corporations and other business organizations are made of people and have had the status of "person-hood" under the law- practically from the very inception of the U.S. Some of the Framers believed and intended this early on. As time went on, and society grew and the world changed, concepts of due process were formalized under the 14th Amendment and then applied to corporations. This was thought out and came to fruition under the theory that corporations and other business organizations owned by and run by people and deserve many of the very same protections their very people are entitled to...

rfenst
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#37

I'll save DMV the trouble........Shut up, Robert. You're stupid. I am right and you are so dumb as to be pathetic. Please take your life.

You're welcome.

JadeRose wrote:

Um, thanks? 🙂

rfenst
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#38

Robert its not that I don't see the validity in your argument. And I do hope for success for GM.

ZRX1200 wrote:

Z,

It's not really "my" argument. I really don't care too much about it all as long as it works on the whole. I am just repeating the history of jurisprudence on the concept of corporate bankruptcy and the different ways bankruptcies work out. Whether I agree or not, things are simply IMO- the way they are.

ZRX1200
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#39

Maybe so but I was arguing!

snowwolf777
Herf-A-Holic

14 years ago

#40

Remember the Chrysler bailout a few decades ago? Was it a failure?

rfenst wrote:

In a word, yes. They went right back to the same, failed business model, and they had to be bailed out again, right behind GM.

Taking money from the public and handing it to corporations with a failed business model to makes no damn sense. If you start a restaurant and it tanks because you suck in the business, no one from the Fed is going to hand you a couple hundred thou so you can "try it again" and see if you get it right this time.

I have enjoyed the debate on this thread and Robert made some great points. So did some other folks. There are a lot of damn smart folks on this board (on both sides of the issues). Which is why I check in regularly and read, even if I don't post.

Now let's all pull in around the fire for a group hug!

\:D/

Edited by user 14 years ago | Reason: Not specified

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