ZRX1200
12 years ago
Yeah TW he just chooses to NOT declare war and use drones and illegal arms sales (kinda like IRAN CONTRA!)
teedubbya
12 years ago
Both equally as bad Zrx. That's my point. I'm not a fan of the big O. Never have been never will be. I'm just easily amused by selective outrage and the GOPs ability to act as a conductor to the chorus of it. It's even more fun when the dems do it and the right get outraged.

No one in here said a word until it was Obama.
HockeyDad
12 years ago

Iran-contra was basically a secret executive order with pretty big consequences.

teedubbya wrote:




Except it wasn't an executive order. Basically it was a law passed by congress....except it wasn't. Basically it was an ice cream truck having a 2 for 1 sale....except it wasn't.


This is the first president to my knowledge that there has been a concerted effort to oppose his every move no matter ho benign since day 1 to the point of not considering him an American. I wonder why?

teedubbya wrote:




Probably because he's black and America as a whole including all the whites who voted for him are reconsidering the results of the whole "free the slaves" experiment.....or maybe it isn't that at all.
teedubbya
12 years ago
victor809
12 years ago

Yeah TW he just chooses to NOT declare war and use drones and illegal arms sales (kinda like IRAN CONTRA!)

ZRX1200 wrote:



So you're saying Obama is the same quality president as Reagan.

Interesting.

I think you can be guaranteed that both sides are going to disagree with that statement, well done Z. Well done. 🙂
victor809
12 years ago

It never ceases to amaze me how a person will so skew an issue to benefit their political agenda.

Take the recent SCOTUS ruling on the Hobby Lobby, et al case.

If one were to base their opinion on what is reported by the "mainstream" media one would believe that the SCOTUS ruled that Hobby Lobby is exempt from providing contraceptive services for women. But, if one actually to the time to look at the ruling, the SCOTUS simply ruled that the least restrictive measures should be required when dealing with the ACA as it relates to the religious beliefs of a closely held corporation.

In the end, the SCTOUS simply stated that there are other least restrictive ways for Hobby Lobby et al to provide contraceptive services other than requiring Hobby Lobby et al to provide.



Hobby Lobby is controlled by the Green family, Conestoga another party in this case is owned by the Hahn family. Both of these families hold religious beliefs that life begins at conception. As such they opposed having to provide coverage for what the believe are in essence aborticants.

Before one jumps up and hollers that the methods opposed by the parties isn't an aborticant, one should know that in a brief submitted to the SCOTUS in this case it acknowledged that the methods in question could in fact result in the destruction of an embryo.

In the end, it should be known that the parties involved in this case do in fact provide contraceptive methods in their employer sponsored healthcare plans. The "mainstream" media just chooses to ignore that SMALL fact.




Let the party begin......

Abrignac wrote:



Abrignac, you're right for the most part. This has bothered me a great deal.

Every time I see a post about how Hobby Lobby doesn't have to provide contraceptives, I twitch... because it's absolutely false.

It doesn't make the ruling any better... What we're seeing here is that we are allowing an absolute layman with no knowledge define what they believe to be an abortion (which should be a scientific concept), and then define whether they consider this act to be a sin (which should be defined by a religious leader) and then allow that to dictate the laws of our land (our laws are based on precedent, this case will be cited many times, just as Roe-vWade has been).

But, in the end you are correct, the media has been abysmal in their lack of precision about what the ruling actually decided.
Abrignac
12 years ago
Victor you're sort of correct, but you strayed a bit. It's not so much that a lay person defined a concept. The ruling is much more precise. It states that in terms of laws with a potential conflict with religious rights it states that in accordance with RRFA laws must use be adopted in the least restrictive way.

The SCOTUS found that contraceptive services could be provided for in a much less restrictive way as agreed by HHS who was charged with writing the regulations. In other words contraception can be provided for as Hobby Lobby and others have done without forcing them to provide a service that HHS said could actually cause an abortion.
victor809
12 years ago

Victor you're sort of correct, but you strayed a bit. It's not so much that a lay person defined a concept. The ruling is much more precise. It states that in terms of laws with a potential conflict with religious rights it states that in accordance with RRFA laws must use be adopted in the least restrictive way.

The SCOTUS found that contraceptive services could be provided for in a much less restrictive way as agreed by HHS who was charged with writing the regulations. In other words contraception can be provided for as Hobby Lobby and others have done without forcing them to provide a service that HHS said could actually cause an abortion.

Abrignac wrote:




I completely agree with the contraceptive part of your statement. The ruling doesn't actually touch on employer's providing birth control pills etc.

This is the problem:
" It states that in terms of laws with a potential conflict with religious rights it states that in accordance with RRFA laws must use be adopted in the least restrictive way."

They are taking Hobby Lobby's word that there is a religious conflict. Why does hobby lobby know there is a religious conflict? Simply put, they personally believe there is a religious conflict (without any need for corroboration by someone who is either an expert in science or religion)... and because of that are granted an exemption. This is a VERY BIG DOOR to open.

Abrignac
12 years ago

I completely agree with the contraceptive part of your statement. The ruling doesn't actually touch on employer's providing birth control pills etc.

This is the problem:
" It states that in terms of laws with a potential conflict with religious rights it states that in accordance with RRFA laws must use be adopted in the least restrictive way."

They are taking Hobby Lobby's word that there is a religious conflict. Why does hobby lobby know there is a religious conflict? Simply put, they personally believe there is a religious conflict (without any need for corroboration by someone who is either an expert in science or religion)... and because of that are granted an exemption. This is a VERY BIG DOOR to open.

victor809 wrote:




At face value one could possibly make that arguement. However, I think its safe to say that abortion is accepted as being in conflict with religious views. Then HHS in their brief against Hobby Lobby stipulated that the 4 methods could cause an abortion.

A whole heartily agree that a huge door was opened. But, that's Obama and the Dem leaderships fault. The used everything upto and including a "nuclear option" to get a controversial law passed. Only a fool would believe anything other than an equal push would be made to undue the ACA.

What's that Newtonian law about equal and opposite reactions?
victor809
12 years ago
Even if abortion is accepted as against their specific religion (and that's not actually a guarantee)... This ruling is accepting, without argument, that the action performed by the drugs and IUD is in fact an abortion.

I can see this as a dangerous precedent. Will this ruling be used to prohibit the use of IUDs in general, the same way religious groups have tried banning the morning after pills?

More interestingly, the hobby lobby also no longer would have to cover in vitro fertilization. In fact, it would be very disingenuous of them to cover it.
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