DrafterX
11 years ago
ask Hillary... 😟
teedubbya
11 years ago
So selective torture is what we are voting on? IE torture those belonging to groups that act like barbarians but don't torture the more civilized groups? That way our enemys will decide how to treat us based on how we treat them (and vice versa). It's not a torture or not policy (either or).

I'm thinking that sounds like a torture policy and any group with a beef with the US would be inclined to follow suit. I also don't think torturing and mutilating them is going to change thier behavior. i don't think anything will short of extermination. It may satisfy some folks blood lust and desire for revenge however.
teedubbya
11 years ago

Justice? WGAF about justice. This would connote capturing said participants and bringing the here for trial. Water board or do what ever is needed to get as much info as is possible. Then cut them loose in the dessert and send in a drone. Hell for that matter just put a bullet in their head once their usefulness plays out. What's difference between that and bombing a building? Dead is dead, so why does it matter?

Abrignac wrote:




It's a matter of in custody and under control or not. Once in custody they are no longer a threat. I'm all for killing them in the field.

If we decide to not be better than them based on what they are doing they have won.
TMCTLT
11 years ago

It's a matter of in custody and under control or not. Once in custody they are no longer a threat. I'm all for killing them in the field.

If we decide to not be better than them based on what they are doing they have won.

teedubbya wrote:




No sir, they ARE winning every time an American life is on display right before being snuffed out. And I say BS once in custody they are no longer a threat....and even IF that were true, why release them to do More harm? I hope we were smart enough to " chip " those MF's before we cut them loose, as I hope we were smart enough to chip and watch closely the Amer. Soldier who willingly walked off his post cuz he didn't want to be there anymore and got traded for 5 high profile terrorists.
DrafterX
11 years ago
I heard they cut his balls off.... it's suppose to keep him from wandering too far.... 😟
gryphonms
11 years ago
To think that we do not use every means possible to gather Intel would be naive. Certain actions which are distasteful are necessary. All the McCain amendment did was to move torture from public view.
HockeyDad
11 years ago
Going after ISIS supports Iran, Assad's Syrian government, and Iraq's Shiite dominated government.

Neither side of the religious/ethnic/sectarian civil wars going on in the Middle East like the USA.

Unless we want to send a massive army made up of our children to occupy the entire region, the USA should just sit this one out. American civilians (reporters or otherwise) have no reason to be in the region.
teedubbya
11 years ago

Going after ISIS supports Iran, Assad's Syrian government, and Iraq's Shiite dominated government.

Neither side of the religious/ethnic/sectarian civil wars going on in the Middle East like the USA.

Unless we want to send a massive army made up of our children to occupy the entire region, the USA should just sit this one out. American civilians (reporters or otherwise) have no reason to be in the region.

HockeyDad wrote:




The funny part to me is the action/reaction peice. They butcher someone to get a reaction out of us and we give it. We over reacted after 911 and we are going to over react now. Scoreboard for them. Our angst legitimizes them and is exactly what they want/need.

By spasing out and wanting to torture/murder/dismember back at them we actualy give them something they otherwise don't have. We have given them a way to get at us, make us act. Right now we are beyond their reach which is why they do things like this. To give them more reach. And our lips quiver, we over react and they win. They are not worthy.





George Wills colum the other day was spot on comparing this to the Ukraine. (not about torture etc. but about the scope of the issue and approach)
teedubbya
11 years ago
Here is the Will article.


The Islamic State is a nasty problem that can be remedied if its neighbors, assisted by the United States, decide to do so. Vladimir Putin’s fascist revival is a crisis that tests the West’s capacity to decide.

Putin’s serial amputations of portions of Ukraine, which began with his fait accompli in Crimea, will proceed, and succeed, until his appetite is satiated. Then the real danger will begin.

Suppose Ukraine is merely his overture for the destruction of NATO, the nemesis of his Soviet memory. Then what might be his version of the Gleiwitz radio-station episode 75 years ago?

On the evening of August 31, 1939, Nazi SS personnel pretending to be Polish partisans seized the station, which was about four miles inside Germany (Gliwice is now in Poland), proclaiming that Poland was invading Germany to achieve “our just [territorial] claims,” and shot a German prisoner dressed in a stolen Polish uniform, giving Hitler his pretext for declaring war the next day.

Putin has discarded the minor inhibitions of what NATO calls his “hybrid war” — giving slightly surreptitious aid to Russian separatists; brazenly infiltrating Russian soldiers in unmarked uniforms. Russia has invaded Ukraine, although the Obama administration likes the semantic anesthesia of calling it an “incursion.” Putin does not pretend that it will be, like President Nixon’s 1970 “incursion” into Cambodia, temporary.

So, suppose Putin, reprising his Ukrainian success, orchestrates unrest among the Russian-speaking minorities in Latvia, Lithuania, or Estonia. Then, recycling Hitler’s words that his country “could not remain inactive,” Putin invades one of these NATO members. Either NATO invokes Article 5 — an attack on any member is an attack on all — or NATO disappears and the Soviet Union, NATO’s original raison d’ĂȘtre, is avenged.

Although no one more thoroughly detested Hitler’s regime that General Erwin Rommel served, Winston Churchill acknowledged in January 1942 in the House of Commons the talent of Britain’s enemy: “We have a very daring and skillful opponent against us, and, may I say across the havoc of war, a great general.” Putin is, the West should similarly acknowledge, more talented and dangerous than either Nikita Khrushchev or Leonid Brezhnev. Their truculence was not fueled by fury. Putin’s essence is anger. It is a smoldering amalgam of resentment (of Russia’s diminishment because of the Soviet Union’s collapse), revanchist ambitions (regarding formerly Soviet territories and spheres of influence), cultural loathing (for the pluralism of open societies), and ethnic chauvinism that presages “ethnic cleansing” of non-Russians from portions of Putin’s expanding Russia.

This is more than merely the fascist mind; its ethnic-c u m-racial component makes it Hitlerian. Hence Putin is “unpredictable” only to those unfamiliar with the 1930s. Regarding the roles of resentment and vengeance, remember where Hitler insisted that France formally capitulate in 1940 — in the railroad carriage near the town of Compiùgne, where Germany signed the 1918 armistice.

Since its emancipation by the Soviet Union’s demise, Ukraine has been ravaged by corruption that frays national sentiment, which even before this was a tenuous phenomenon. In The Long Shadow: The Legacies of the Great War in the Twentieth Century, David Reynolds of Cambridge University cites a British diplomat’s 1918 analysis:


Were one to ask the average peasant in the Ukraine his nationality, he would answer that he is Greek Orthodox; if pressed to say whether he is a Great Russian, a Pole, or an Ukrainian he would probably reply that he is a peasant; and if one insisted on knowing what language he spoke, he would say that he talked “the local tongue.”



Ukraine may be an ethnic casserole susceptible to diminishment by Putin’s ladle. But the Baltic States, by virtue of their NATO membership, are, regardless of their histories or sociologies, decisively different. And given Putin’s animus, nourished by his negligibly resisted success in Ukraine, he is more dangerous than the Islamic State.

This group is perhaps 20,000 fighters possessing some artillery and armor but no air force. It is an island of tenuously occupied territory in a sea of hostile regimes — those of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Iraq’s Kurdish region, which has its own regime. These command approximately 2 million troops who, with ample air power, can pulverize the Islamic State whenever the regimes summon the will to do so.

U.S. participation in this should be conditional on the regional powers’ putting their militaries where their mouths (sometimes) are in the fight against radical Islamists. U.S. participation in defense of the Baltic States is unconditional.
teedubbya
11 years ago
Le HD we can not sit this one out now since they asked us to and started beheading folks because then it would look like we did what they wanted. See what they did? It seems almost intentional.
Abrignac
11 years ago
Unfortunately those nations on the periphery will prolly do nothing for the foreseeable future. The Arabic nations especially Saudi Arabia have far too much to lose if they miscalculate sentiment. Iran on the other had is prolly supplying them.
victor809
11 years ago

Because he and others Think we overstepped our boundaries when we water boarded etc. some terrorists being held in Guantanamo to get answers they would NOT otherwise be forthcoming with. Vicki and OBama supporters alike are all in when it comes to " playing Nice and Fair " with Terrorists!!!

TMCTLT wrote:




Sigh...
You really aren't usually able to understand complex concepts are you.

First, the most important question. How do you know everyone held at Guantanamo is a terrorist or has been associated with terrorists at any time in their life?
(psst... the answer is you don't. Because of the way this administration and previous administrations have run guantanamo there is no course of action for an individual to defend themselves from their incarceration. You could be picked up and shipped to guantanamo and there would never be a trial for you to be able to prove you don't buy pizza hut pizza).

Once we get past the idea of whether the indiividuals are actually terrorists or whatnot... I'd like you to point to a single instance where I have said we need to "play nice and fair". That's a straw man you've been bandying about. You pretend I made that argument, then you argue against it. Now, I understand that it may be hard for you to grasp the nuances of my posts, but I have little care what we do with proven enemy combatants, homeless people, people who can't read, or people without a basic grasp of logic. If you want to behead them all, go for it. Turn them into soylent green. My argument is simply that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't go strutting around pretending you're from the greatest nation on the planet if the nation can be dragged down by the lowest groups on the planet. It's so simple I think even you can understand this.

teedubbya
11 years ago

Sigh...
You really aren't usually able to understand complex concepts are you.

First, the most important question. How do you know everyone held at Guantanamo is a terrorist or has been associated with terrorists at any time in their life?
(psst... the answer is you don't. Because of the way this administration and previous administrations have run guantanamo there is no course of action for an individual to defend themselves from their incarceration. You could be picked up and shipped to guantanamo and there would never be a trial for you to be able to prove you don't buy pizza hut pizza).

Once we get past the idea of whether the indiividuals are actually terrorists or whatnot... I'd like you to point to a single instance where I have said we need to "play nice and fair". That's a straw man you've been bandying about. You pretend I made that argument, then you argue against it. Now, I understand that it may be hard for you to grasp the nuances of my posts, but I have little care what we do with proven enemy combatants, homeless people, people who can't read, or people without a basic grasp of logic. If you want to behead them all, go for it. Turn them into soylent green. My argument is simply that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't go strutting around pretending you're from the greatest nation on the planet if the nation can be dragged down by the lowest groups on the planet. It's so simple I think even you can understand this.

victor809 wrote:




personally I think vic should have to go hang out with the terrorists since he wants to play nicey nice with them and TMCTLT should have to behead a few and butcher their limbs etc. since that is what he is proposing. After each get done with their assignments I hope they post their experiences and how it changed them.
DrafterX
11 years ago
pics or it didn't happen... đŸ€
victor809
11 years ago

personally I think vic should have to go hang out with the terrorists since he wants to play nicey nice with them and TMCTLT should have to behead a few and butcher their limbs etc. since that is what he is proposing. After each get done with their assignments I hope they post their experiences and how it changed them.

teedubbya wrote:



I'm pretty sure if we handed TCBY a big ole beheading sword and a tied up terrorist he'd just make some excuse about not having the time to put in the sort of effort in beheading that those damn terrorists have and he's gotta go somewhere and do something.
teedubbya
11 years ago

I'm pretty sure if we handed TCBY a big ole beheading sword and a tied up terrorist he'd just make some excuse about not having the time to put in the sort of effort in beheading that those damn terrorists have and he's gotta go somewhere and do something.

victor809 wrote:




true..true.....



kidding aside if we implemented that policy (behead and dismember them) can you imagine how effed up the person would have to be (or would be following) that had to carry it out? Personnaly I think the ISIS folks that do that have to be sick in the head if not full out psychotic. Whomever did it on this end would have to approach that as well. sort of a microcosm of the broader policy.... and stuff
DrafterX
11 years ago
we could build a remote control guillotine with a dozen triggers so no one is sure if they be-headed the dude or not... 😟
teedubbya
11 years ago
What if that tech fell in to the hands of the enema?
DrafterX
11 years ago
we'll just turn some ebola loose on their ass.... 😟
CelticBomber
11 years ago

true..true.....



kidding aside if we implemented that policy (behead and dismember them) can you imagine how effed up the person would have to be (or would be following) that had to carry it out? Personnaly I think the ISIS folks that do that have to be sick in the head if not full out psychotic. Whomever did it on this end would have to approach that as well. sort of a microcosm of the broader policy.... and stuff

teedubbya wrote:




That statement right there, I think, highlights the fundamental difference in our(The West) outlook on life and what it means to be a decent human being to them(The terrorists, and Middle Easterners in general). They grew up in a culture and religion that teaches them life is cheap. Your sister gets raped? Kill her or your family has no honor. A woman in your family goes unaccompanied into public without a male relative? Whip her. Their Prophet Muhammad, Gods supposed messenger had sex with a 9 year old girl and they see not one thing wrong with that.... They teach that part of his history! They don't even try to act like it didn't happen! The religion of peace? Yeah, right. One thing most people don't know about the Koran is that if there is any conflicting messages found, the part that was written later trumps any earlier message. So the Koran starts with messages of peace but is contradicted later on by messages of kill all non believers. So the Imams go on CNN and preach about the religion of peace and fail to mention that all those peaceful messages are over ruled by later parts of the Koran. A thief gets caught and they cut off his hand and then they all slap each other on the back for a job well done. Growing up in a brutal culture and religion like that... they just don't see the horror and inhumanity in the things they do like we do. It's why we will never be able to affect change over there. Those guys who behead our people... I'd give 1000 to 1 odds that they sleep like babies and will even brag to their friends and family about it for their entire lives, short lives I hope. You cannot reason with a culture who has a different definition of what reasonable thought and behavior is.
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