wheelrite
11 years ago

If you ever get a chance to speak with illegals or their families (and I have more than I will admit) their distrust of government is usually incredibly deep. They tend to live paranoid of getting caught and avoid government institutions like the plague.

There are definitely major issues caused by illegal immigration. Vother fraud is not one of them. It just gets folks whooped up and distracted.

teedubbya wrote:



Bull Crap...

Illegals don't care.
They all go to County Hospitals, schools etc. All Gov't institutions,,
They have no desire to vote or, become citizens. They don't want to pay taxes and want to send money back to Mexico,
You obviously don't live in a border state...

wheel,,
cacman
11 years ago

If you ever get a chance to speak with illegals or their families (and I have more than I will admit) their distrust of government is usually incredibly deep. They tend to live paranoid of getting caught and avoid government institutions like the plague.

There are definitely major issues caused by illegal immigration. Vother fraud is not one of them. It just gets folks whooped up and distracted.

teedubbya wrote:


Usually their distrust of guberment comes from their distrust of the guberment in their own Country.
They come here seeking a better life with a belief in a better guberment. Then they get here and are made empty promises for their potential vote.
cacman
11 years ago

Should I start referring to you as KKK Cacman?

victor809 wrote:


Typical Liberal race-baiting.
What does the KKK or anything I've posted have to do with race?

Requiring an ID to vote is no different than requiring an ID to collect free social benefits, free admission to cultural institutions, acquiring affordable housing, etc. etc. etc.

You can not cross the Mexico or Canadian border and be permitted to vote without proving citizenship. You can not cross the ocean to the UK, Greece, Italy, etc. and be permitted to vote without proving citizenship. So why should we allow millions of illegal immigrants from various countries who are breaking the law be given the right vote in the US without proving citizenship? What benefit is that to the US democratic process? There have been many documented cases of voter fraud, ironically more prevalent in recent years and during the "O"s elections.

If you're going to promote ID's and licensing to exercise a person's 2nd Amendment rights, then the same should apply to the 15st Amendment and voter rights.

The Fifteenth Amendment (Amendment XV) to the United States Constitution prohibits the federal and state governments from denying a citizen the right to vote based on that citizen's "race, color, or previous condition of servitude". It was ratified on February 3, 1870, as the third and last of the Reconstruction Amendments.
IMO illegal immigrants that are breaking the law do not qualify as "citizens" or fit the "previous condition of servitude" no matter how long they've been here, or how hard they work, or what job they do that is now below what the American people are willing to do because they can collect more on welfare.

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right of individuals[1][2] to keep and bear arms.[3][4][5][6] The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that the right vests in individuals, not merely collective militias, while also ruling that the right is not unlimited and does not prohibit all regulation of either firearms or similar devices.[7] State and local governments are limited to the same extent as the federal government from infringing this right per the incorporation of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, as part of the first ten amendments comprising the Bill of Rights.
Illegal immigrants can not purchase a firearm in the US without proper ID, proof of citizenship, and/or a proper background check.

So why should illegal immigrants be allowed to vote without an ID? And whose rights are you disenfranchising by allowing illegal immigrant the right to vote? Doesn't allowing an illegal immigrant the right to vote disenfranchise a legal citizen's rights?
teedubbya
11 years ago
You haven't spoken to many of them have you? I have in a professional and personal capacity.

While they may distrust their home government, that carries over to the U.S. government as well. They are here illegally and live in constant fear of getting caught and sent home. While some in here believe that doesn't happen they do believe it does and the stakes are high to them.

I distinctly remember a LEGAL immigrant (anchor baby) after 911 fearing she or her family would be sent back to Mexico in the aftermath. Seems illogical maybe even silly but she was dead serious and scared as hell.

I've worked on projects attempting to provide outreach to the Hispanic community in general and the illegal community directly and indirectly. They avoid the government like the plague and are paranoid (rightfully so, they are breaking the law every minute of every day).

They can't vote and for the most part wouldn't if they could. The percentage of legal Hispanic immigrants isn't exactly stellar.

The voting issue is a farce and doesn't exist. It distracts from the fact that illegal immigration is a legitimate problem.
teedubbya
11 years ago
Should have read the percentage of legal Hispanic eligible voters that actually vote is not exactly stellar.

It's just a silly issue. If someone sells you a solution without a problem keep your hand on your wallet.
teedubbya
11 years ago
Require an id. I don't give a ****. But the issue will not be resolved because there was never an issue. It's a big waste of time.
cacman
11 years ago

You haven't spoken to many of them have you? I have in a professional and personal capacity.

While they may distrust their home government, that carries over to the U.S. government as well. They are here illegally and live in constant fear of getting caught and sent home. While some in here believe that doesn't happen they do believe it does and the stakes are high to them.

I distinctly remember a LEGAL immigrant (anchor baby) after 911 fearing she or her family would be sent back to Mexico in the aftermath. Seems illogical maybe even silly but she was dead serious and scared as hell.

I've worked on projects attempting to provide outreach to the Hispanic community in general and the illegal community directly and indirectly. They avoid the government like the plague and are paranoid (rightfully so, they are breaking the law every minute of every day).

They can't vote and for the most part wouldn't if they could. The percentage of legal Hispanic immigrants isn't exactly stellar.

The voting issue is a farce and doesn't exist. It distracts from the fact that illegal immigration is a legitimate problem.

teedubbya wrote:


I live in an area over-abundant with illegal immigrants.
If the voting issue is a farce, then what's the harm is requiring validation of citizenship?
If the "issue will not be resolved because there was never an issue", why wait until it does become an issue to do something? Doing nothing is doing nothing but being irresponsible.

"They are here illegally and live in constant fear of getting caught and sent home."
So what. Who cares. If you're here legally and abide by our immigration laws, then there's no fear of being caught.
It's not like our Country deports illegal immigrants anyway. Instead the Dems offer empty promises in an effort to "buy" their vote.
teedubbya
11 years ago
So you live in an area with lots of illegals. How often do you speak to them about the subject? Or how often do you speak to them about anything iof substance. You know the answer.

I said rightfully so. Ie they shouldn't be here and should be sent gone if caught. I'm sure you figured that out.

I also said go ahead on the id requirement. It won't solve the issue because there is no issue. It's a waste of time but if it makes you feel good do it. You'll have to figure out your next artificial outrage though because they can't and don't vote now. It's a non issue.
cacman
11 years ago

I also said go ahead on the id requirement. It won't solve the issue because there is no issue.

teedubbya wrote:


I guess that's where we differ. I do see it as in issue. Illegal immigrants are often offered more benefits and rights than legal tax-paying citizens. And giving them the right to vote regardless of citizenship defeats their efforts towards becoming legal citizens. Why should they go through the procedure of becoming legal if they are given freely the same rights and benefits as tax-paying citizens?

How often do we speak of the subject... daily. Especially within the healthcare community and the free healthcare benefits provided to illegals as opposed to what the tax-paying Obamacare subservients have to pay for. I won't even get into the free education illegals are provided regardless of citizenship.
cacman
11 years ago

I'm just gonna throw this out there from an objective standpoint... I'm guessing most illegal immigrants are not risking everything to cross the border so they can infiltrate the government at the voting booths...

hinzna wrote:


Would you risk everything for amnesty towards your crimes, to then be given a ton of free social & health benefits not provided by your own Country? Who do you think they would vote for?? I moved across the country to take advantage of rights I was busted for in another State in the US!!?!?!
victor809
11 years ago

Typical Liberal race-baiting.
What does the KKK or anything I've posted have to do with race?

cacman wrote:


Dude... Your very first post in this thread was race oriented. What do you think la raza means? I can find no actual reference to that judge being part of la raza, yet you make the connection based solely on her race. That's the same as calling a white guy KKK cacman.
cacman
11 years ago

Dude... Your very first post in this thread was race oriented. What do you think la raza means? I can find no actual reference to that judge being part of la raza, yet you make the connection based solely on her race. That's the same as calling a white guy KKK cacman.

victor809 wrote:


Dude... Again you didn't fully read my posts. You've obviously missed the cynicism of the the Headline written by the editor of author of the article. I didn't write the article, only offered the reference.

Race has nothing to do with requiring a Voter ID. You're obviously a WASP and like to evoke comments for the pure purpose of initiating responses that you can further exaggerate to support your radical beliefs. But that's not held against you- at least entirely - yet.
hinzna
11 years ago
^^^^^^ That's what we call irony kids!
teedubbya
11 years ago

I guess that's where we differ. I do see it as in issue. Illegal immigrants are often offered more benefits and rights than legal tax-paying citizens. And giving them the right to vote regardless of citizenship defeats their efforts towards becoming legal citizens. Why should they go through the procedure of becoming legal if they are given freely the same rights and benefits as tax-paying citizens?

How often do we speak of the subject... daily. Especially within the healthcare community and the free healthcare benefits provided to illegals as opposed to what the tax-paying Obamacare subservients have to pay for. I won't even get into the free education illegals are provided regardless of citizenship.

cacman wrote:




They do not have the right to vote nor will they. You can continue to ignore this fact and pretend it's different, but it isn't. That's not to say you could never find an example of voter fraud but it is in no way extensive or impactful.

Nor do they have more benefits and rights than legal tax paying citizens but that is another issue entirely. They should be sent home and have no benefits.

Where we differ is on the facts and that is why you keep talking about it daily. It is a fairy tale you cling to in order to keep harping on it. Keep tossing out misinformation and arguing from there. It's too bad because the illegal issue is a real one with serious implications. Voting isn't one of them. It's hard to focus on the real issues with such silliness and blatant misinformation being spewed. Then again thats why nothing is getting done and the politicians from both parties keep raking in money over this issue.

As I keep saying. Implement the id requirements. I'm not opposed. I could care less. But it won't fix the voting issue because it doesn't exist. I know you don't want to hear it. Oh well.
TMCTLT
  • TMCTLT
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
11 years ago

^^^^^^ That's what we call irony kids!

hinzna wrote:




You are obviously the " kid " nothing to add or support, just gasoline to toss on the fire....#-o
Abrignac
11 years ago

Require an id. I don't give a ****. But the issue will not be resolved because there was never an issue. It's a big waste of time.

teedubbya wrote:




So by that logic, a driver's license is a waste of time as is the requirement to provide an ID to receive any other sort of government benefit, to receive treatment in a hospital, etc....

Why not make it illegal to possess an ID if they are un-needed.

WGAF how scared illegals are? Why are you a outreaching to them? Why are we providing any services at all for illegals when veterans and others who have served or paid into the system are not getting services they need?
hinzna
11 years ago
You marked it tmc, because I don't take discussions on cigar forums too seriously must mean I stand for nothing!
DrafterX
11 years ago
I didn't think we were allowed to call them 'illegals' anymore.... 😟
teedubbya
11 years ago

So by that logic, a driver's license is a waste of time as is the requirement to provide an ID to receive any other sort of government benefit, to receive treatment in a hospital, etc....

Why not make it illegal to possess an ID if they are un-needed.

WGAF how scared illegals are? Why are you a outreaching to them? Why are we providing any services at all for illegals when veterans and others who have served or paid into the system are not getting services they need?

Abrignac wrote:




I think you had better re read what I wrote.


I said go ahead and require ID. It just won't fix the problem of illegals voting because the problem doesn't exist in the first place. Do it if it makes you feel better.

IDGAF how scared illegals are. I said rightfully so. They should go home. That fact was simply being used to put the rest in to context. It was in no way saying we should give a **** about that.

Why are we providing benefits....? we shouldn't be. I said that too.

Why have I been involved in outreach? I won't go in to that in here. We can do that off line. Sometimes we are forced to do things we disagree with to remain gainfully employed. You just need to decide where that line is. If/when we talk I'll expand on both.

That said my whole focus was on the percieved problem of illegals voting not all the other counter defense mechanisms that make it make it difficult to hit the target.
DrafterX
11 years ago
why do you hate illegals..?? 😕
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