As far as I recall learning about WWII... Japan did not hide their combatants in hospitals, schools and civilian neighborhoods.

The Palestinians and Hamas do this every time, for the exact reason of claiming that Israel is targeting civilians. It's simply NOT TRUE.

And not wearing uniforms….

But still praying and screaming for the death of Israel and the United States.


Weird

Israelgives does give civilian Palestinians advanced warning by dropping leaflets and broadcasting in Arabic to warn civilians to get away from what is coming.

Yes, they do... weird way to commit genocide or war crimes or atrocities, don'tcha think?

Better to inform oneself than believe the media's lies.

10 Facts to Know About War and Judaism

Chabad
War in Judaism is a complex issue. Some wars were Divinely ordained, for reasons known to G‑d alone. Others were necessary for self-defense or other purposes. The ultimate goal, however, is for the world to be at peace, as Isaiah prophesied: “He [Moshiach] shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.”1

1. Some Biblical-Era Wars Were Divinely Ordained
During the conquest of Canaan, the Jewish nation was commanded to eliminate the tribes that inhabited the land, in order to prevent their evil ways from spreading. According to the Jerusalem Talmud, these nations were given the opportunity to repent and accept upon themselves the Seven Noahide Laws. Only if they refused to accept this moral code and instead remained steadfast in their sinful ways was the command to be carried out.2

G‑d also commanded us to battle Amalek, the nation that attacked the people of Israel on their way out of Egypt: “Remember what Amalek did to you on the way, when you went out of Egypt . . . you shall obliterate the remembrance of Amalek from beneath the heavens. You shall not forget!”3

This category of war is known as milchemet mitzvah, a Divinely ordained war.

2. Peace Must Be Proposed First
A telling directive as to how warfare should be carried out is found in Deuteronomy: “When you approach a city to wage war against it, you shall propose peace to it.”4 There is discussion amongst the rabbis as to whether this condition applies to Divinely ordained warfare (milchemet mitzvah) or only to a discretionary war (milchemet reshut). A discretionary war is one that is embarked upon by a king of Israel to secure or expand the borders of Israel. In order to embark on such a war, the king must obtain authorization from the Sanhedrin, the Jewish High Court5. According to Maimonides, this command applies to Divinely ordained wars as well.6

3. Weapons Are Not Ornaments
In discussing the laws of carrying on Shabbat, the Mishnah underscores an important ethical idea. On Shabbat it is forbidden to carry an object four cubits in a public domain. Clothing or jewelry, which a person wears, is not considered to be in violation of this law, since you are not carrying your clothing. The Mishnah states that it is forbidden to go out wearing a sword or another weapon. Rabbi Eliezer objects, saying: “For him it is an ornament” (i.e., it should be permitted just as jewelry is). The rabbis respond: “They [weapons] are only a discredit [to those who wear them], as the verse states:7 ‘And they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks . . .’”8 Ultimately, in the days of Moshiach, weapons will be transformed into tools that help mankind. Weapons represent a state of the world that we don't want to be in, and wearing them is no badge of honor, no symbol of beauty.

4. The Camp Must Be Holy
During war, special emphasis is placed on maintaining the purity and sanctity of the camp. As the verse tells us: “For the L‑rd, your G‑d, goes along in the midst of your camp, to rescue you and to deliver your enemies before you. [Therefore,] your camp shall be holy, so that He should not see anything unseemly among you, and turn away from you.”9 The Torah provides practical examples as to how the camp should be kept clean and pure. For instance, the troops were to carry a tool with which to dig and cover their waste after relieving themselves.10 Additionally, the Torah strongly emphasizes the importance of a superior level of morality. The verse states: “When you go forth against your enemies and are in camp, then you shall keep yourself from every evil thing.”11 The Midrash interprets this to refer to various forms of depraved behavior, which the army was to avoid.12

5. Newlyweds and Others Would Stay Home
Before battle, a kohen and an officer would address the troops, giving inspiration and also the opportunity for some soldiers to withdraw from battle. The kohen would proclaim: “Hear, O Israel, today you are approaching the battle against your enemies. Let your hearts not be faint; you shall not be afraid, and you shall not be alarmed, and you shall not be terrified because of them.” The officer would continue: “What man is there who has built a new house and has not inaugurated it? And what man is there who has planted a vineyard, and has not [yet] redeemed it? And what man is there who has betrothed a woman and has not [yet] married her? Let him go and return to his house, lest he die in battle . . .”

The officer would also give an opportunity for those who may have been fainthearted to return home, lest their lack of morale affect their fellow soldiers.13 Rashi here, quoting the Talmud,14 points out that this faintheartedness could also refer to one whose sins made him afraid, for he felt that he was unworthy and would therefore not survive the battle.

6. King David’s Warring Prevented Him From Building the Temple
G‑d tells King David: “You have shed much blood, and you have waged great wars; you shall not build a house in My name, because you have shed much blood to the ground before Me.”15 Although King David was not necessarily wrong for waging all those battles, the Temple was to be a place of peace. As such, it was to be built by King David’s son Solomon, a man more suited to the peaceful nature of the Temple.

7. During a Siege, a Side of the City Must Be Left Open
An interesting and enigmatic condition to siege warfare is found in Maimonides’ Mishneh Torah: “When a siege is placed around a city to conquer it, it should not be surrounded on all four sides, only on three. A place should be left for the inhabitants to flee and for all those who desire to escape with their lives, as it is written: ‘They besieged Midian as G‑d commanded Moses.’ According to tradition, He commanded them to array the siege as described.”16 Again, there is discussion as to whether this law applies to both categories of war, or if it would apply only in a case of a discretionary war.

8. One Life Is No More Valuable Than Another
A famous case is cited in the Jerusalem Talmud regarding a group of Jews who are ambushed by non-Jews. The gentiles give them an ultimatum: either hand over a single Jew to be killed, or the entire group will be killed.17 The law is that no single Jew may be handed over; the entire group must give up their lives.18 The Lubavitcher Rebbe explains the rationale behind this law: Since a Jew’s soul is an actual part of the infinite G‑d, two souls are no more an expression of G‑d than one soul. We humans cannot be the arbiters of justice, to decide who shall live and who shall perish.19 Even at a time of war it must be remembered that human life is precious, and all must be done to avoid unnecessary death.

9. We Are at War With Our Evil Inclination
We as Jews are fighting a constant battle against our evil inclination (yetzer hara). In fact, our very purpose in this physical and mundane world is to ultimately triumph in this principal battle. This is achieved through the steadfast observance of Torah and mitzvahs. Our ultimate reward for persevering in this battle is the final redemption, a time where there will be no battles, a time when the world will finally be at peace.


10. We Are at War With War Itself
Rabbi Sholom DovBer, the fifth Rebbe of Chabad-Lubavitch, devoted an entire treatise to the war we must each wage against interpersonal divisiveness. Rather than choose a passage that commands love of one’s fellow or the like, he begins with a passage commanding a genocidal war against the Midianite nation:

The L‑rd spoke to Moses saying, “Wage the vengeance of the Israelites against the Midianites . . .” So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “. . . Carry out the vengeance of G‑d against Midian.”20

Midian, Rabbi Sholom DovBer tells us, is a conjugate of the Hebrew word madon, meaning “feud or quarrel.” In a direct inversion of their literal meaning, these passages are to be read as commanding a genocidal war against quarrelsomeness, a campaign to erase the egotistical divisiveness that is rooted in our own souls. Moses terms this war “the vengeance of G‑d,” which implies that quarrelsomeness is not merely a social ill, but a sin against G‑d. In other words, the real war we need to wage is the war against war itself.





Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 2:4.
2. Jerusalem Talmud, Sheviit 6:1.
3.Deuteronomy 25:17–19.
4. Deuteronomy 20:10.
5. Mishnah, Sanhedrin 1:5.
6. Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim 6:1. For an explanation as to how this would square with the positive command to eliminate Amalek, see the commentaries on Maimonides ad loc.
7. Isaiah 2:4.
8. Mishnah, Shabbat 6:4.
9.Deuteronomy 23:15.
10. Deuteronomy 23:14.
11. Deuteronomy 23:10.
12. Sifri, Ki Teitzei 44.
13. Deuteronomy 20:1–9.
14. Talmud, Sotah 44a.
15. I Chronicles 22:8–10.
16 .Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim 6:7.
17. Jerusalem Talmud, Terumot 8:4.
18. Unless, according to some opinions, the non-Jews name a certain individual to be handed over.
19.Reshimot, no. 123.
20. Numbers 31:1–3.

Hamas May Not Have Enough Living Hostages for Cease-Fire Deal
The group is in discussions with Israel over releasing 40 women, children, elderly and sick captives


WSJ
Fears are rising over the fate of the remaining hostages held in Gaza after Hamas said it was unsure whether it could bring forth 40 Israeli civilian captives as part of a U.S.-backed cease-fire proposal, according to officials familiar with the negotiations.

The 40 hostages, including women, children, elderly men, and those in fragile health, would be released under a U.S.-supported plan for a six-week cease-fire in the war in Gaza. In exchange, Israel would release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

Instead, the militant group has been unable to confirm that it has enough civilian hostages to fulfill its end of the deal in the initial phase of the proposed plan, complicating talks toward a possible cease-fire in the six-month-old war that has left much of Gaza in ruins.

A Hamas official said the group wouldn’t commit to releasing 40 living hostages but could commit to 40 hostages total, which could mean dead or alive.

The admission by the militant group, which took more than 240 hostages during its lethal Oct. 7 attack on Israel, has heightened fears among families of the hostages, who are piling pressure on the Israeli government to cut a deal with Hamas that would pause the fighting and free at least some of the remaining captives.

“Every day without a deal endangers them. For half a year, they have been toying with their lives, permitting their blood to be spilled,” said Hadas Kalderon, the mother of two children who were kidnapped by Hamas and later freed, speaking at a protest outside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office on Tuesday. The children’s father remains in captivity.

The Israeli government has rejected the families’ accusation that it hasn’t made the hostages a priority and says freeing the captives is a top priority of the war. Both Israel and Hamas responded critically to a new U.S. cease-fire proposal this week.

The Israeli military declined to comment on estimates of how many hostages may remain alive. The Israeli prime minister’s office declined to comment on the matter.

The exact number of hostages still alive is a central issue in the negotiations toward a cease-fire deal. Proposals by the U.S. and Arab states envision Israel releasing Palestinian prisoners, in varying numbers, in return for different types of Israeli hostages including civilians, female soldiers, male soldiers and the bodies of dead captives. Ambiguity around the number of living hostages and their identities could impede progress in the talks.

Separately, U.S. intelligence reports indicate that an attack on Israeli assets by Iran or its militia allies could be imminent, U.S. officials said Wednesday, as the top American military commander for the Middle East headed to Israel to coordinate a response.

Iran has publicly threatened to retaliate for a strike in Syria on an Iranian diplomatic building in Damascus last week, presumed to be the work of Israel, that killed top Iranian military officials, including a senior member of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps’ elite Quds Force.

The U.S. alert offers yet another sign of how Israel’s war in Gaza following the Oct. 7 attacks has spread into a regional conflict, which in turn is complicating a resolution of disputes between Israel and Hamas. Among those, hostages remain at the forefront.

Around 130 remaining hostages taken in the attack are still in Gaza. Of those, Israeli officials have publicly confirmed that 34 are dead, but Israeli and American officials estimate privately that the number of deaths could be much higher. More than 100 other hostages were freed during a weeklong cease-fire in a deal with Hamas in November.

U.S. and Israeli officials believe that some of the remaining hostages are being held by Hamas and used as human shields around the group’s leadership, which Israeli officials believe is hiding in tunnels in southern Gaza.

Some U.S. estimates indicate that most of the hostages are already dead, U.S. officials familiar with the intelligence said. They stressed, however, that U.S. visibility on the hostages is limited and depends, in part, on Israeli intelligence. Some were likely killed during Israeli strikes on Gaza, the officials said, while others have died from health issues, including injuries suffered during their initial capture.

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence declined to comment.

The latest estimates mark a notable increase from recent U.S. assessments. As recently as February, Israeli and U.S. officials believed that at least 50 hostages had been killed, suggesting that roughly 80 remained alive.

The majority of the dead died as a result of wounds they suffered during the Oct. 7 attack. Others were already dead when militants took their bodies into Gaza and some are believed to have been killed by Hamas in captivity. The Israeli military in December also said it mistakenly shot and killed three hostages. At least one died in a failed Israeli rescue mission.

Hamas officials for weeks have told negotiators that the group was unable to confirm how many hostages remain alive, according to Arab mediators talking directly to the group. Egypt and Qatar are acting as intermediaries in negotiations between Hamas and Israel.

At times, Hamas argued that providing information on the remaining hostages would mean giving up leverage in the negotiations, the mediators said.

Hamas has also repeatedly said that it needs a pause in fighting to track and collect the hostages. The group made the argument before it agreed to the November cease-fire deal, an agreement that eventually collapsed in part because Hamas failed to produce a list of 10 living civilian women and children held in Gaza.

Hamas repeated the argument on Thursday. “Part of negotiations is to reach a ceasefire agreement to have enough time and safety to collect final and more precise data about the captured Israelis, because they are in different places by different groups, some of them are under the rubble killed with our own people,” Basem Naim, a member of the Hamas political bureau in Gaza, said on the group’s Telegram channel.

Mediators believe that the majority of the remaining hostages who remain alive are younger male hostages, including soldiers.

One solution to Hamas’s refusal to provide a list of 40 civilian hostages slated for release in the initial phase of the deal would be to include captive Israeli soldiers. Hamas has been reluctant to do that because it is demanding a much higher price for the soldiers, including the release of Palestinian prisoners serving long sentences on terrorism-related charges.

Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti in 2003 PHOTO: TAL COHEN/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES
Hamas has also sought a deal that would end the war in Gaza and demanded a full Israeli withdrawal from the enclave. The group also aims to negotiate the release of senior Palestinian political and militant leaders, including Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti, as a part of the final phase of a potential cease-fire deal with Israel, according to officials familiar with the talks.

In Israel, a forensic medical committee is tasked with determining hostage deaths from afar using classified intelligence. Members of the committee mostly rely on security-camera footage and videos from devices recovered in Gaza as the war has progressed.

It was the committee that determined the deaths of 34 hostages taken on Oct. 7, most of whom died in the attack, according to Ofer Merin, director-general at Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem and a member of the committee.

“It’s been six months since these people were taken into Gaza. These families have no second in the day or a second in the night that their minds are calm. They are in constant agony,” said Merin.

Determinations of death must meet a high bar and are never based on one piece of intelligence alone. Israel has separately recovered the bodies of 12 other hostages, bringing the total number of hostages who are confirmed dead to 46.

Families of some American hostages have increased their public pressure on the Biden administration to do more to secure their loved ones’ release. On Tuesday, Vice President Kamala Harris met with some of these families.

“There’s no question the war must be won and Hamas must be eradicated. But the hostages are running out of time,” Orna Neutra, the mother of Israeli-American hostage Omer Neutra, told CNN’s “State of the Union.” “It’s not clear whether the Israeli administration has the priority right,” she said.

Rachel Goldberg-Polin, whose 23-year-old son Hersh Goldberg-Polin is being held by Hamas, described the White House meeting as a productive discussion but also said the families “want results.”

Harris “underscored that President Biden and she have no higher priority than reuniting the hostages with their loved ones. She also reaffirmed the U.S. commitment to bring home the remains of those who have been tragically confirmed to be deceased,” the White House said after the meeting.

I went back and read everything and I see where the confusion was with me, DMV & Stogie.

Post #18 DMV "There is no Palestine on the map."

Post # 19 Me "Or Israel"

Well, in post #17 I had just mentioned the Sykes Picot agreement of 1916 as a bigger picture solution. There was no Israel on the map either.

However, that's not the agreement I was thinking about. What I was referring to is the 1947/48 "UN plan" which is the "two state solution." Going back to that map would mean Israel would have to stop their "settlements" (land theft at the barrel of a gun) and cede land back to the agreed upon boundaries, and Palestine would have to recognize Israel's right to exist and stop their terror/small scale attacks. Sadly I don't think the leadership of either side will let that process happen. So more of the same...
.
In 2024 the name "Palestine" is not on a map. I dealt with it. It's those carved out areas within Israel. It's not a dejure state, but for sure a defacto state with their own criminal government and everything.

Post #36

To say that Palestinians don't have their own culture and customs because they are all Arab Muslims is like saying there is no difference between Virginians and Alaskans because they're all Americans. Not true.

Post # 11

I see it's still crickets concerning my claim that the entire conflict has just as much to do with land and resources as it does ideology. That's fine. Wonder if the Gazans will be the benefactor of the Leviathan gas field? I'm sure they will. Wink wink.

Post #38

Intent? Here's an excerpt from the article Ray posted:

"Netanyahu has also recently invoked Biblical language to “justify” his mass killing of Palestinians. In a public oration he quoted Samuel 15:3 saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible.” And, quoting “Our Holy Bible”: “Now go and attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”"

Maybe it's political rhetoric idk, but sounds pretty genocidey to me considering what's happening to the Palestinians at the moment.

Post #35

On the individual level I think most people want peace. Governments, corporations and central banks don't. War and death is a big bidness.

I think King is probably right, 9/11 2.0 is coming up. Maybe just before (s)election time? Endless war, and open borders, has consequences.

Post #45

If you think what I said about the Israeli government was bad, never look into your own governments record of genocide, war crimes and other human rights violations.

Post #37

Those were fun and crazy times.


Epilogue: That's really all I have to say on the matter. 😟

Speaking of looking into your own government's record of war crimes I highly recommend Union Terror: Debunking the False Justifications for Union Terror Against Southern Civilians in the American Civil War (Shotwell Publishing, 2023) written by Dr. Jeffrey Addicott.
https://shotwellpublishing.com/union-terror/ 

He is a terrorism and war crimes expert, he describes himself as a "proud 20-year veteran of the United States Army who not only spent most of my career as a senior legal advisor responsible for ensuring compliance with the law of war, but also had the good fortune to serve as the Staff Judge Advocate to the United States Army Special Forces Command (Airborne) – the Green Berets. Consisting of five active-duty Special Forces (SF) groups and two Army National Guard groups, the assigned duties of SF include direct action combat strikes against enemy forces and warfare training of allied indigenous forces – both missions heavily dependent on a strict adherence to the law of war and the highest levels of professionalism. As a subject matter expert in covering the requirements of the law of armed conflict, there is no greater satisfaction to witness how ethical conduct and combat efficiency go hand in hand."

An extremely well-researched book based on primary documents and first-hand accounts on all sides exposing the policy of command-approved terrorism by Lincoln down to his generals.

Book review by Philip Leigh:
https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/union-terror/ 

^48

Please reread, you are using a context that does not exist. There is no Palestinian race. They are a conglomeration of other middle eastern races. This is a commonly known fact. Once you understand this your error should be clear to you. Palestine refers to a geographical region only.

Sometimes I like to go back and read a thread again and this caught my eye.

Made me think, isn't that just the beginning of the story? It gets deep...

Correct, and in fact in the UN partition plan, the Arabs in what is now Israel, after they lost the war in 48, were given what is now Jordan, but they fought amongst each other to much and the Hashemite kingdom kicked them out. They HAD a country. They effed it up. Sound familiar? Anyone accusing Jordan of settler colonial apartheid? Nope.

Robert, in regard to the gas fields you seem so concerned about, I encourage you to find one single instance of a Gazan doing one single thing to explore, tap, refine, or pump a single liter of gas from that field. They sure seem industrious with the tunnels, the rockets, the weapons smuggling, etc. They sure got enough foreign aid, too. But the only thing they manage to build or develop is hate for Jews.

^

Yeah. Hamas is savage no doubt. They would kill me in a heart beat. Imagine if they were a real army and it was a fair fight...

I think of the non-combatants though. People just trying to have a somewhat normal life within the place where they were born. Just the average person over there...

It's sad that life is so cheap. It's that way with all wars though. A few get rich while the majority pay the price. Like Smedley Butler said, "War is a racket."

"non-combatants"...

Here are the textbooks they use in Gaza. Start at page 98 and tell me where the non-combatants are.

https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf 


Also, here is nearly ten minutes of Hamas' own videos showing them engaged in combat. Find me one fighter wearing an actual military uniform... (Hint: they don't)

Are you saying all Gazians are combatants?

I am saying that:

1. Being in civilian attire in Gaza does not make you a de facto civilian,
2. Harboring combatants or hostages, aiding or allowing acts of warfare or storage of warfare items in your home/property removes your (and anyone else present) designaiton as a civilian non-combatant.

I’m sure at a minimum toddlers and such aren’t out there actively carrying out attacks on anyone so that pretty much rules out all being combatants. IIRC Hamas didn’t win the elections by unanimous consent so that rules out even more. That said the populace is certainly overwhelming anti-Israeli.

On the other hand, I can’t believe anyone was foolish enough back in 1948 to believe that by forcing 500,000+ people from there homes any sort of peace would ever be possible. The notion of a 2 state solution is equally foolish. In what world is anyone foolish enough to believe that having being expelled from their homes anyone would sign on to an agreement that basically states they can return home as long as they do a, b, c…..x, y & z.

In reality different groups of people have been fighting over a few hundred square miles of desert for millennia. Jews feel like the land is theirs because their god is believed to have said so. Arabs on the other hand feel like the land is theirs because they were living there until being expelled in 1948.

Going forward wars will still be fought over that stretch of desert and absolutely nothing is going to stop what has been going on since man walked on 2 legs.

How about the civilians and the children?
Remember that everyone who voted for or is a member of Hamas were once children too.

^57, your viewpoint is very accurate.

You want me to give you something? OK, iwill give you toddlers. But then ask yourself why their are toddlers near rocket launchers, RPGs and AK-47s? Who is realy endangering them?

Also, you have mistaken some event from 1948. No one "forced Arabs out" of Israel en masse. In fact, they were encouraged to leave by other arab nations to clear the way for the (first modern) destruction of Israel. Woops, that didn't work out so well since they lost. This is the basis of the "nakba" reference you hear Arabs lament. "The Great Tragedy" if you will. Some Arabs were smart and said "I think I will be an Israeli citizen in this new country and live peacefully (we hope)". Many others chose to leave and were displaced of their own accord and have been pissed ever since that they participated in a war that they lost.

There was no expelling of Arabs.

Once again, I will ask why there are no (longer) bustling Jewish enclaves in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc...? Why not? Yet there are large Arab comunities in Israel with full Israeli citizenship... How many Jews have sat on Iran's Supreme court, or Syria's legislative council? Zero. Arabs serve on the Israeli Supreme Court and in the Knesset.