frankj1
a year ago
went out for a while, came back and saw I was still on this page, so I might as well spill a few more thoughts.
More from my head than from a World Studies curriculum...

Much like there is a miniscule chance of having memories prior to developing language, sooooo much of the Torah/5 Books of Moses/Old Testament survived for generations, perhaps many centuries via the Oral Tradition. Rules and laws, some simply rules for any society to enforce such as theft, were also passed down, along with punishments. Others dealt with worshipping "requirements".

Literalists believe God instructed Moses to write 'em down, theoretically for the first time. OK, cool. But that leads one (me anyway) to surmise that the Ten Commandments and more were already in practice among the Hebrew people prior to appearing in print...or written in stone?

A few centuries before that the known world (and even the unknown world at that time) saw other rules and laws in written form. I can think of the Code of Hammurabi(sp?) for one, and another couple a couple centuries before that...the names of those societies escape me at the moment.

Buddhism involved morality as well and began before the others, IIRC.

And some cultures interacted. Certainly when cultures interact (ok, this will be from World Studies, but 50 years ago!) there will always be changes in each of them...it could be one adopts some music/arts traits, another might adapt some technology of the times, agriculture, maybe food prep, and one would equally likely snag some religious concepts.

I dunno, wasn't there. But certainly not sheer lunacy to think cultural intermingling could have added some international spice to lots of Biblical tradition...both the Prequel and the Sequel...
unless one is a literalist, which I'm not.

Also, I believe morality can not be enforced, but humans generally develop a conscience and I feel that part of brain function gives birth to ethical and moral goals in us.

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jeebling
a year ago

consider that part of assuming good and evil, as defined by believers, requires belief in God is also inescapably tied to the teachings of the religion itself. It's part of the education/indoctrination process (I don't mean a negative here) that it only exists within God...simply put it does not allow for human beings to have any innate sense of morals, or even the capacity to develop from life experiences.

Sorry, Jeebs, but I completely reject that limitation.

frankj1 wrote:




I follow what you’re saying here. The belief in God is the limiting factor in my claim, I accept that point and it is irrefutable. Similarly , the innate sense of human morality is a limiting factor and when we add lived experiences to the equation then there is no good and evil but rather individual morals based on individual experiences. So murder could be okay if it helped someone overcome an obstacle in their life. With lived experiences, there is no limiting factor.

I haven’t read your next post. Some of what I’ve said may be addressed there. If not, what’s your opinion of what I’ve said here?
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jeebling
a year ago
Frank, I’m arguing that God is the source the law, not the God of Moses, the Jews, the Christians or Buddhist, etc.. Intermingling happens and we see it clearly from Greek to Roman to Jews to Christians, I agree with that. It is my claim that societies look to God, whatever God they claim, for the source of morality.

Not for nothing, but I think the literalist will say that Moses did not write the Ten Commandments but God presented him with them inscribed on stone. Twice in fact. I could be incorrect on this point and it doesn’t change my argument really. Just throwing out some scintillating discussion lol.

I appreciate your thoughts here.
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Stogie1020
a year ago

consider that part of assuming good and evil, as defined by believers, requires belief in God is also inescapably tied to the teachings of the religion itself. It's part of the education/indoctrination process (I don't mean a negative here) that it only exists within God...simply put it does not allow for human beings to have any innate sense of morals, or even the capacity to develop from life experiences.

Sorry, Jeebs, but I completely reject that limitation.

frankj1 wrote:




Frank,

I have been wrestling with this notion of the basis of morality for a long time. I am curious if you are you aware of any groups of civilization, at any point in time, who developed a moral "code" but did not have a belief in any higher power/God/spirit who formed the basis for such a belief?

Were I an aetheis (I am not) I could easily say that my current, enlightened moral compass is not guided by a Judeo-Christian idea of God, but I have had decades of conditioning by that very Judeo-Christian idea of God infused in our conutry's culture to lead to me this point. I am wondering if you know if there has ever been a culture that developed, without the foundation of a spritual/godly/omnipitent being, a set of moral principles to guide them?
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Speyside2
a year ago
As a Christian I do not follow the Jewish good book. I follow the Christian good book. My morality and rules come from within, and the New Testament.
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jeebling
a year ago

Ya, the Jeeb be cool hell... 😟

DrafterX wrote:



Thank you, Drafter. I’ll try to live up to that.

🇨🇮
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jeebling
a year ago

As a Christian I do not follow the Jewish good book. I follow the Christian good book. My morality and rules come from within, and the New Testament.

Speyside2 wrote:




It is interesting too that Jesus said that he did not come to Judge the Law but to fulfill the Law. Of course, as Christians we know that Jesus will judge everyone according to the Law when he returns. And the Jews believe the Messiah will be the new King. Forgive me if I am clumsy with the abbreviated details here.
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frankj1
a year ago
I'm not trying to change minds or tell anyone they are wrong.
I fully support the belief system of all with or without a religious base.

But I personally believe that part of the human evolution includes a conscience, that each conscience includes a sense of right vs wrong (good vs evil if you prefer) and that our government should leave individuals to find their way without said government.
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Stogie1020
a year ago

I'm not trying to change minds or tell anyone they are wrong.
I fully support the belief system of all with or without a religious base.

But I personally believe that part of the human evolution includes a conscience, that each conscience includes a sense of right vs wrong (good vs evil if you prefer) and that our government should leave individuals to find their way without said government.

frankj1 wrote:


I wasn't challenging your comments, Frank. I am genuinely searching for a reference to a group or civilization that has managed to codify (in practice at least) a moral code without a god-like foundation. I have not found one yet, and I am starting to think I won't... Causation? Correlation? Not sure yet.
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Abrignac
a year ago
As we all know I don’t have a problem speaking my mind without regard to whether or not I ruffle a few feathers in the process. The notion that someone needs religion to give them a set of rules to live by is in my opinion silly. That’s not to include the various religious laws regarding cleanliness, food preparation etc…

If everyone simply treated their fellow man the way they wanted to be treated the world would be a much happier and peaceful place. No wants to have their property stolen so if we don’t that to happen to us then we shouldn’t do it to someone else. The same goes for murder, rape, etc….. Who wants to be lied to? So why lie to someone else? Etc, etc, etc…..

Having been in law enforcement and corrections I couldn’t begin to count the number of dirtbags I’ve seen go to jail, find religion, get out and pick up where they left off stealing, robbing, raping and killing.

Then there is the conflict of salvation. Christians believe that one must accept Jesus as their savior or forever be banished from Heaven. Well considering Jews are God’s chosen people and according to their covenant they will have salvation. So there’s a bit of a contradiction there. Is there some secret handshake unbeknownst to mankind that allows the Jews in Heaven while not accepting Jesus as the Messiah? How about Muslims with whom Judaism and Christianity share the same God. Or the fact that Muslims actually believe Jesus was a prophet just not as important as Mohammad? Let’s not forget about the Protestant subdivision of Christianity. If the Bible is infallible then will they go to heaven for renouncing the Catholic Church who according to Matthew 16:18 Jesus told to build his church yet the rebelled and formed their own? Do they go to heaven? What about Buddhist followers? Hindus?
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RayR
  • RayR
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
a year ago
According to the LEFTY religion, only duhmacracy can give you a set of rules to live by.
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rfenst
a year ago

... Then there is the conflict of salvation. Christians believe that one must accept Jesus as their savior or forever be banished from Heaven. Well considering Jews are God’s chosen people and according to their covenant they will have salvation. So there’s a bit of a contradiction there. Is there some secret handshake unbeknownst to mankind that allows the Jews in Heaven while not accepting Jesus as the Messiah?...

Abrignac wrote:


Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah and that the Messiah will return again. Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and that the Messiah has not come yet.

So, when the Messiah comes there will be one simple question to ask of the Messiah: "Did you previously come the in the form of Jesus?"

If the answer is "yes I previously came in the form of Jesus", then Jews can accept Jesus as the Messiah. If the answer is "no I did not previously come in the form of Jesus", then Christians can accept Judaism (or any other religion) should they choose to; or none at all.

Either way, solution of the conflicting views will get figured out easily in the long-run...
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HockeyDad
a year ago
Of course he could say he came in the form of Muhammad.
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RayR
  • RayR
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
a year ago

Of course he could say he came in the form of Muhammad.

HockeyDad wrote:



I remember when Lefties used to say he came in the form of Obama.
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DrMaddVibe
a year ago

I remember when Lefties used to say he came in the form of Obama.

RayR wrote:



In foreign policy as well, Mr. Obama would bring to the White House an important experience that most other candidates lack: he has actually lived abroad. He spent four years as a child in Indonesia and attended schools in the Indonesian language, which he still speaks.

“I was a little Jakarta street kid,” he said in a wide-ranging interview in his office (excerpts are on my blog, www.nytimes.com/ontheground). He once got in trouble for making faces during Koran study classes in his elementary school, but a president is less likely to stereotype Muslims as fanatics — and more likely to be aware of their nationalism — if he once studied the Koran with them.

Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it’ll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/opinion/06kristof.html 

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...:-"
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jeebling
a year ago


I'm not trying to change minds or tell anyone they are wrong.
I fully support the belief system of all with or without a religious base.

But I personally believe that part of the human evolution includes a conscience, that each conscience includes a sense of right vs wrong (good vs evil if you prefer) and that our government should leave individuals to find their way without said government.

frankj1 wrote:



I never thought you were trying to do anything like that. I asked and you answered. This is just a friendly airing of opinions. As I said, I’m interested in what you think and what backs up your opinions. By the way, I hope you believe me when I say that I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind or tell anyone that they are wrong. I enjoy swapping ideas.

I understand your position. Well explicated my friend.

🇨🇮
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frankj1
a year ago
#89 stogie and #96 jeebs...I never thought nor will ever worry that youse guys are doing anything but...hey, we're just talkin' here.
Stogs cuz i kinda know ya, and jeebs cuz I've been enjoying what you bring as a member of an outstanding class of noooods.

Just kinda tapped on this for now.

#95 division of motor vehicles- to have had the incredible opportunity to experience other parts of the world...I can't find the hate in me.
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DrMaddVibe
a year ago

#89 stogie and #96 jeebs...I never thought nor will ever worry that youse guys are doing anything but...hey, we're just talkin' here.
Stogs cuz i kinda know ya, and jeebs cuz I've been enjoying what you bring as a member of an outstanding class of noooods.

Just kinda tapped on this for now.

#95 division of motor vehicles- to have had the incredible opportunity to experience other parts of the world...I can't find the hate in me.

frankj1 wrote:



Hate is such a strong word. Speaking of words...I didn't make those...those were all Bathhouse Barry's!
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frankj1
a year ago
prayers sent.


MCFA!
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