cwilhelmi

Almost all premium Cigars are made with munching machines, which are hand tools, like many of the hand tools rollers use. The brands that don't use bunching machines just havn't implemented them yet.

Limoric. I agree with you on the "hand finished". but made with a bunching machine, therefore it is a machine made.

I do not however agree that most cigars are made with a bunching machine.

The way to prove that is. If a cigar is made a machine made, when you take it apart, removing the wrapper and unraveling the tobacco, there will be a "lip" or "tuck" where the bunching machine holds the tobacco to begin the roll. The "tuck" will not be present in a hand rolled cigar.

Mr.Mean

"I do not however agree that most cigars are made with a bunching machine".

Do some research and get back to us. I can only go by what I'm told by those in the business. Also, I read an article in Cigar Aficionado that talked about these bunching machines ( which are hand tools and not run by an assembly )Many premium smokes are rolled using these machines as they produce a better draw. The article also went on to say that more and more factories are starting to use newer improved hand tool to produce better premium smoke.

The time may be coming when we have to re-define "Hand Rolled"

If someone else can prove that this is not becoming a trend in the hand rolled cigar bus., I will eat my words and go back to newbie training camp.

If someone "who knows" would like to ad clarity to this topic, please do so. I'm certainly not an expert

My source for information is from someone in the cigar manufacturing business. In addition to that, I have hands on experience to help identify the difference given to me by this person.

I gave you the means to identify between the two. Don't discredit it without trying it yourself.

Besides it interesting to take apart a cigar and feel, smell and burn the different tobaccos. to see how they relate to each other. To find the frog!

Microchips are best made by machines; cigars are not.

As you probably guessed, the highest quality cigars are painstakingly rolled by hand, and it shows.

Machine-made cigars, which can be mass-produced quickly and cheaply, are usually made of broken scraps of tobacco leaves that are unsuitable for hand-rolling. Therefore, they smoke less evenly and burn more quickly.

It's pretty easy to tell if a cigar is machine made by looking at the wrapper -- if you see lots of seams suggesting that it's more of a patchwork of tobacco than continuous leaves, you're looking at a machine-made cigar.

Higher-end machine-made cigars look (and even smoke) like man-mades, but the highest quality cigars are still carefully made by bona fide human beings. In general, a machine made cigar is inferior to hand rolled cigars, and may even contain non-tobacco ingredients.

Agreed on all points, but many of us have smoked top end premium smokes such as Arturo Fuente, which I think we can all agree are premium hand rolled smokes. They use a bunching machine, rather than bunching by hand, everything else is done by hand from rolling the binder on to the rapper and endcap. Long filler is used. Jose Peidra is made in the same way.

The Bunching machine is a Hand tool, not an automated process. I've even downloaded a video where Altidis was demenstrating the hand rolling process for their Monecristo, Uppman and others. They were using a bunching machine.

I have pulled a Jose Piedra apart after smoking half down, all long filler.

So if using a bunching machine is indeed machine made, half the premium smokes in our humidors are machine made. And if everyone can agree with that, I will let this post die.

So everyone vote, Bunching machine and everything else applied by hand, machine made? Yes or know

I've seen the rolling process at a CAO sponsered event and they use a wooden press after the binder has been applied in order to bunch the cigar. The cigar is left in the press for a few hours and then turned 90 degrees and left in the press for another couple of hours. Then the wrapper is applied.

The use of a press is part of the process, however it is nothing like rolling a zig-zag... These cigars are considered entirely hand made.

Chris, what Limoric is referring to is a like a wooden sled, not a press. The tobacco is laid out and an end is secured. A push across the sled rolls the tobacco into its form. Then placed in the mold.

That sound right Limoric.

Now, question for Limoric. If the tobacco is processed through the bunch and then the wrapper is applied, are you considering that a "hand made".

Mr.Mean

Now, question for Limoric. If the tobacco is processed through the bunch and then the wrapper is applied, are you considering that a "hand made".

Yes to you description of the bunching machine only a leaver is pulled, not like a cigarette machine where you slide the tobacco together.

I guess I figue, if the tobacco is pressed and molded, and then the binder and rapper are rolled by hand this would be hand rolled. But I do see your point that the tobacco is not bunched by hand. A premium smoke is premium becouse it is hand rolled, but a lot of premium brands use bunching machines. So are they premium.

I guess my point is, I don't want people to confuse machine made and hand finished. A lot of machine made smokes are rapped with paper tobacco mix ( yuk ). Jose Piedra are pure Cuban tobacco.

I've smoked a lot of JP's (100's of Cubans) and found some ("some") to be better than the more premium Cuban's, JP's are made with the same Tobacco, from the same farms. The main difference is that it's not usually the cream of the crop. Also they are not aged as long. The Idea is increased production and expedient delivery. Put one in the Humi for 6 mo. You'll be pleasently surprised.

So the long answer is, maybe not hand rolled, but deffinatley not machine made.

Warning To U.S. Buyers of Jose Piedra. While searching for info and deals on JP's which I can buy legally. I noticed a few U.S. web sit's selling Jose L. Piedra smokes made by Pedron with Honduran Tobacco . They look identical and use the same size names. My bet is there are a lot of these floating around. And they are quite possibly machine made.

J. Piedra's are completely different cigars after 6mos. in the humidor. Shows that they are rushed out, as you said in your post. I haven't been so lucky as to find one that competes with a premium Cuban...in fact, never close. (I've had the Cazadores and Nacionales). But I do like them as daily smokes.

The tobacco usually doesn't come from the Vuelta Abajo, however, so I think it is stretching things to say that they are from 'the same tobacco' as the premiums. Doesn't mean that the cigar isn't good. Just that it isn't a Pinar del Rio roll, except in chance cases.

The Padron produced J. Piedras are pretty good, I think. VERY cheap at my local shop and reasonably tasty. Same idea as the Cuban JPs, made from remainder tobacco, and surprisingly good. And, yes, they do look exactly like the Cubans...even the paper box they come in!

Ah, marketing in America. They ain't the first to try and confuse the senses.

John

Most mass market premium cigars, irrespective of their country of origin, are hand bunched, then formed using a Liberman machine and molds. The Liberman is simply a hand press. Totalmente a Mano cigars are very rare, today, and are usually limited to fresh rolled, where the torcedor makes the cigar as you stand watching. Even then, he may place the bunch in a mold for a few minutes, before applying the binder and wrapper.

Cuban "machine-mades" are cigars that are entirely mechanically machine made. They are short fill and use sheet binders and wrappers.

Cuban machine made, but hand finished cigars are mechanically machine bunched using short filler, but a real leaf wrapper is put on by hand later. Surprisingly, the Cuban government allows these to be designated Hecho e Mano, because they are hand finished.

To the best of my knowledge, the only thing about Jose Piedra (Cuban) that is "hand made" is the application of the wrapper. If you dissect one, you'll find short, medium, and even some long fill. I do not believe that any homogenized product is used in their construction.

The cigar industry has developed machinery that will bunch and roll up to a 50 gauge cigar from long filler that will consistently draw perfectly. It is only a matter of years before these are used thoughout the industry, even with the finest cigars.

Thaaaaank You. My point exactly. Only the facts about the Cuban JP has to get right. I normally smoke the Conservas and Bravas. Where I might agree that the smaller sizes use mixed filler, the larger are long filler. But I wouldn't be surprised if from time to time this wasn't the case, They are massed produced. Where I live these cigars are stored in walk- in Humidors in many ratailers for at least 6 mo before they get into the smokers hands. That is why I say, every second one I smoke comes close to the premium cigars especially if tobacco's from the same farm are utillized. The mix is never consistant so sometimes thier great and some times there not. For 5 bucks vs 30 bucks where I live, it's worth taking the chance. By the way, if the smoke isn't so good I just light up another one.

Conservas are great and even greater after 6 months. Limoric, this has been a great discussion. I believe the success is in understanding what peoples definitions of Machine made versus Hand made. Clarification of the different techniques that have been described here will benefit those that read it.

I guess I should have called this thread "Best Hand Finished ISOM"...

Thanks to all who participated. cwilhelmi and Mr.Mean send me your snailers, something coming your way from the Great White North.

eric1 at telusplanet dot net

Hey guys, for someone without much ISOM experience this has been a VERY informative discussion/debate to watch from the sidelines. Thanks for the info.

email sent, thanks Eric!!

C

This thread is an example of how a discussion should go.

Glad for opportunity to spread some info, glad you got something out of it Wer.

E-mail sent.

Great discussion guys, and thanks for all of the recommendations!!

C

Excellent thread..

Thanx for the info!