*

ouch

good one

I dunno Rick;

I think that there is a conceptual line to be drawn between;

torture inficted to gain intelligence that can save lives

vs

death in an acid bath because your morals are aligned against a tyrannical regime.

What andy said!

Charlie

and well said andy. too bad it is falling on deaf, bush bashing ears

yes, only the good guys can break the very laws that they've written and only if it's for the good of us.

We write a law that says "no torture" but yet we break it as we please.

They don't write a law, but since they broke ours, we punish them.

That above statement makes about as much sense to me as saying it's okay for a cop to drink and drive because he's a good guy and had a hard day at work.

Torture is against the law, it is inhumane, and anyone who commits this act should be punished.......regardless of who they are.

To claim that "we are the good guys" and that "we are doing it for the good of others" is a self-glorifying, BS statement. Hitler killed for the good of others too, okay?

what andy said, what charlie said, what ei said.

sometimes i am amazed at the **** that comes out of peoples brains, down their arms, and through their fingertips.

adroomi,

I didn't mean to imply that torture is acceptable. I would never have the stomach for it (unless family is involved...who knows?).

BUT....I do believe that the means CAN justify the end (sometimes). If the end is the prevention of mass loss of life, then yes (gulp)........go for it.

As a tool for intimidation from a regime w/o popular appeal.....just seems gruesome and sadistic.


I don't always have faith that those making that call are making good moral decisions, but in this case of comparison, I adhere to my opinion that there is NO COMPARISON.

As far as legality goes, if we say it is illegal, it shouldl be illegal.............only it shouldn't be illegal.

"sometimes i am amazed at the **** that comes out of peoples brains, down their arms, and through their fingertips."


Maybe it comes from the wearing of tin foil hats, huh.

Oh yeah let the first man who is against torture quit investing in and supporting countries who use torture on their own people, unless your making a ton of money on your investments I guess then you can support those countries. Money is the best material there is for making "blindfolds".


LMAO


JonR

What I have a problem with is calling what saddam did(cut people up, acid, torches, etc) and the interragation techiques we imploy the same. I don't recall any account of one of our prisoners letting out a blood curdling scream because he had underwear on his head. Oh yeah the mental torture of it all, being touched by a women or being seen naked by a women, by the vary prisoners that jack off and then throw the ejaculate onto their prisoners. Oh I forgot they saw each other naked to. Like they have never had to bath in the same water source together. I guess it could be called torture if you force someone to chew bubble gum if they hate bubble gum, the mental anguish.

Lance

lsfire

ok, you got me.

there is good torture and there is bad torture and we only use good torture while they only use bad torture.

ok, i'm with you all the way.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH I'm hit with that one. Down for the count. Nice reply, but it does not deal with the point I was trying to make.

POINT:

Since when did underwear on someone's head, nudity, sleep deprevation, or barking dogs become torture?

In my mind torture has always included with it some sort of unbearable physical pain. Under your definition forcing one to chew bubble gum against his will is torture.

Rick please answer the above question.

Lance

The Liberals/Democrats continual use of a moral equivalancy between President of the United Sates and Saddam, Hitler, et al, was a major contibution to the losses in the last election. Until you people begin acting like the "loyal opposition" that was once the party of Kennedy and Roosevelt, rather than surrogates for America's enemies, you will lose more power. The Senate "super majority" and the judiciary is next.

There are some on the right, like Limbaugh, Coulter, and Hannity, whose base of popularity comes from resentment for Ward Churchill, Michael Moore, and people like Rickmaven. Keep it up, 2006 will be here before you know it.

lsfire

i will give you without hesitation embarrassing someone as you describe is not really torture. no physical pain.

the question then becomes are there any results from the prisoners that would assist our intelligence or is it just a bunch of stupid gi's doing it just because they can get away with it for their own deviant pleasure.

but 29 prisoners died in that prison and there were commands given to "beat the **** out of them." and we are flying prisoners and releasing them to countries we know inflict phisycal torture.

i don't knowwhat kind of torture israel uses, but they seem to be able to get intelligence enough to pinpoint attack known ringleaders of terrorist groups.

whether they get that info through the use of torture or they get the info because israel has spies living in the enemy camps that are willing to die, if and when they are caught, for their countries security, i don't know.

i can't pinpoint the source, but i did read that no israels were in the WTC the day of the attack because they knew what was going to happen and warned US intelligence.

Rick,

Given your last answer, it may be some other country that may be torturing the prisoners but nobody is realy sure. so I'm confused(which quite often is a common state of mind for me) then how is it that Pres. Bush and/or the U.S. is so horrible for writing laws then breaking those very same laws? I can't recall, has there ever been an explaination given for the prisoner deaths?

Lance

Lazygardner

Limbaugh, Coulter, and Hannity are caricatures and they are for amusment purposes only, much the same as bugs bunny and road runner.

limbaugh is a known junkie
coulter is a woman who learned the art of confrontation without having any knowledge or interest in what she is talking about and is making a living at it.

hannity just backed out of a college lecture because he was not provided the specific private jet he demanded.
he is an o'rielly wannabe.

o'rielly is the big muckity muck because he appeals to the dumb, closed minded, patriotic, flag waivers, who can't think for themselves but can, if awakened out of a sound sleep, recite the clichés and talking point of the administration.

proof, unfortunately, of the failings of our education system.

lsfire

the us in collaboration with other countries, wrote and agreed to the geneva convention rules for the treatment of prisoners.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm .

your current AG who replaced ashcroft helped to write a memo explaning how to circumvent the geneva convention. by calling them enemy combatents instead of POW's he suggested that we did not have to abide by the geneva convention.

http://www.bunkerforums.com/archive/index.php/t-6212.html 

he is the same lawyer that helped get citizen george w bush excussed from jury duty without having to divulge his record of drunk driving to the court records so that it would remain hidden until just before the 2000 election when george admitted to it because the proof was there. he said he didn't want to embarass his twin daughters who might have been better served by an alcoholic father of the dangers of drinking. don't forget even a "dry" alcoholic is still considered by friends of bill w to be an alcololic.

http://white-horse.net/billw.html 

http://www.vedanticshorespress.com/bill-w-a- 
strange-salvation_main.htm

"Limbaugh, Coulter, and Hannity are caricatures and they are for amusment purposes only, much the same as bugs bunny and road runner."

Last I read Rush Limbaugh signed a 5 year radio contract for $8,000,000 a year,not bad eh. Rush bitches and moans about liberals to an audience of millions and gets paid $8,000,000, you on the other hand piss and groan to a few people on a website and receive nothing for your feeble efforts.

JonR


Ps: How much income did you make last year?

lsfire

no reasonable explaination has ever been to explain the deaths of those we held in prison.