victor809
11 years ago
Ok, so this "Religious Liberty" thing has been rattling around in my head a little bit. Mainly because there are things I find disagreeable on both sides.

But here's the problem I keep getting stuck against, something that I can't wrap my head around.

Lets say you're a sandwich shop owner... and you're a Mormon. You do not believe in drinking beer, or drinking caffeine, all that dumb stuff Mormons believe. If you're asked to cater an event in which things are going on which are against your belief... are your religious liberties actually being violated? Does being in a room where someone is drinking beer actually cause you to go to hell? Is being in a room where someone else is drinking coffee actually a sin in those religious tracts? If one can be in a room where people are drinking beer, drinking coffee, not having multiple wives... then why can't one be in a room where people are getting gay married?

This is what keeps sticking. No one in any of this has asked a florist, or a baker or a candlestick maker to get gay married. They just have to be in the same room as something occurring which is theoretically something they believe is against their religion. People do that all the time... but because gay marriage is some sort of LEGAL hot button issue (note, a LEGAL term is not a religious tract...these are two separate ideas), people seem to be focused on this.

So exactly what are "religious liberty" laws supposed to protect a person from? Their religious beliefs aren't being violated.

The only instance where I can see a person's religious beliefs actually being violated might be if you ask a Hindi to butcher a cow for you or something. But hey... I'm willing to at least hear what the biddies here want to say.
View All Posts by User
DrafterX
11 years ago
screw the hindu... 🤐
View All Posts by User
ZRX1200
11 years ago
They are supposed to give someone "standing" in defense in court.

You don't understand LDS word od wisdom. Mormons bodies are a temple and they aren't supposed to partake in ingesting those things. Being around them isn't partaking, like a Jewish guy can't sit next to a guy in a Chinese restaurant that's eating shrimp and pork fried rice?

Victor are familiar with the florist that is in hot water? She's served the gay couple for a decade, but wouldn't do their wedding. Are you familiar with Melissa Cakes? They offered to recommend other bakeries.....these people had and WERE going to be served. The hate isn't so one sided as is being projected.

Homosexuallity IS widely accepted but there is a majority of people that just don't want to have anything to do with it. The problem I have with what's going on is force and coercion by the state. And I have a problem with a small portion of homosexuals I call the pink mafia who by any means want to force societies acceptance. I don't like that, change hearts and minds with love and valid arguments. Society isn't as bad as many make it out to be.
View All Posts by User
opelmanta1900
11 years ago
as a Christian, I find this whole thing silly... if you - as a business owner - are willing to do business with non-Christian heterosexuals, you have no Biblical leg to stand on in refusing business to non-Christian homosexuals...

It is ridiculous to believe that God is somehow more against the sexual immorality of the homosexual than he is the heterosexual... thou shalt not be a homo didn't even make the top ten...

Thou shalt not commit adultery - a concept Jesus himself elaborated on to show that the term "adultery" goes on to include any sexual activity between a man and a woman who aren't married, EVEN LOOKING AT OR THINKING LUSTFULLY ABOUT A PERSON WHO ISN'T YOUR SPOUSE- that made the top 10...
View All Posts by User
frankj1
11 years ago
less than a full answer, but I suspect your beer/caffeine examples are not strong enough to support what you really want to get into...I say this not because I am a Mormon maven, but I'm guessing those rules of that religion are akin to Kosher "law".

No Jew (to my knowledge) believes that eating pork or shellfish keeps you out of the eternal land of milk and honey, as that type of violation is probably not considered a sin. Kosher laws are for health and safety.

I bet Mittens attended many a fundraiser where coffee was served.
View All Posts by User
frankj1
11 years ago

as a Christian, I find this whole thing silly... if you - as a business owner - are willing to do business with non-Christian heterosexuals, you have no Biblical leg to stand on in refusing business to non-Christian homosexuals...

It is ridiculous to believe that God is somehow more against the sexual immorality of the homosexual than he is the heterosexual... thou shalt not be a homo didn't even make the top ten...

Thou shalt not commit adultery - a concept Jesus himself elaborated on to show that the term "adultery" goes on to include any sexual activity between a man and a woman who aren't married, EVEN LOOKING AT OR THINKING LUSTFULLY ABOUT A PERSON WHO ISN'T YOUR SPOUSE- that made the top 10...

opelmanta1900 wrote:


what a thoughtful answer.
View All Posts by User
HockeyDad
11 years ago
Maybe "Thou shall not be a homo" was #11 and that was on the 3rd tablet that Moses dropped.
View All Posts by User
DrafterX
11 years ago
That's what I heard... 😟
View All Posts by User
HockeyDad
11 years ago

screw the hindu... 🤐

DrafterX wrote:




Well they did bring us the Kama Sutra.
View All Posts by User
frankj1
11 years ago

Well they did bring us the Kama Sutra.

HockeyDad wrote:


which is way more useful and better than multiple wives.
View All Posts by User
victor809
11 years ago

They are supposed to give someone "standing" in defense in court.

You don't understand LDS word od wisdom. Mormons bodies are a temple and they aren't supposed to partake in ingesting those things. Being around them isn't partaking, like a Jewish guy can't sit next to a guy in a Chinese restaurant that's eating shrimp and pork fried rice?

Victor are familiar with the florist that is in hot water? She's served the gay couple for a decade, but wouldn't do their wedding. Are you familiar with Melissa Cakes? They offered to recommend other bakeries.....these people had and WERE going to be served. The hate isn't so one sided as is being projected.

Homosexuallity IS widely accepted but there is a majority of people that just don't want to have anything to do with it. The problem I have with what's going on is force and coercion by the state. And I have a problem with a small portion of homosexuals I call the pink mafia who by any means want to force societies acceptance. I don't like that, change hearts and minds with love and valid arguments. Society isn't as bad as many make it out to be.

ZRX1200 wrote:



Z,
I do understand that the florist and the baker were very "reasonable"... I don't think they drove the gays out of their shops with pitchforks.

But being at a gay wedding isn't that different than standing next to someone eating pork fried rice. You aren't going to leave the wedding accidentally gay married or anything. Even if one's religion prohibits getting gay married, putting flowers on church pews before a gay marriage and taking them off after doesn't cause that person to become gay married. My point is, just as much as this silly storm around the florist and the bakery is people making a statement, the florist refusing to put flowers up for a gay wedding was not her exercising her religious freedom (that would be her refusing to marry a woman)... it's her making a political statement.

And for the record, serving a gay couple for a decade before refusing to do their wedding actually kind of makes it worse. It also means that gay couple was unwittingly helping a person profit who didn't believe they should be allowed to get married. They could have been patronizing another business for that whole decade, and had a relationship with a different florist who they felt comfortable asking to do their wedding.
View All Posts by User
victor809
11 years ago

which is way more useful and better than multiple wives.

frankj1 wrote:




are mormons allowed to pork all their wives at once in a big pile? Because that may be more useful than one really bendy wife.
View All Posts by User
victor809
11 years ago


Thou shalt not commit adultery - a concept Jesus himself elaborated on to show that the term "adultery" goes on to include any sexual activity between a man and a woman who aren't married, EVEN LOOKING AT OR THINKING LUSTFULLY ABOUT A PERSON WHO ISN'T YOUR SPOUSE- that made the top 10...

opelmanta1900 wrote:



This is actually one that was directly in my head when posting this thread.

Just by selling flowers to straight unmarried men who are going to use them to get some @sss, the florist is doing more to enable sin than she would be by decorating a wedding.

View All Posts by User
ZRX1200
11 years ago
Victor they knew she was religious. They didn't raise the stink about it, others did and now she's going to lose her home.

The difference you fail to see is religious people see weddings as a RELIGIOUS ceremony entering a covenent with God.

Fried rice is a little different holmes.

Religious folks don't see marriage as a state affair even though that's what it's become now. I understand why you can't see that but it's frustrating that some who aren't as open to THINKING about things aren't willing to try.
View All Posts by User
frankj1
11 years ago

are mormons allowed to pork all their wives at once in a big pile? Because that may be more useful than one really bendy wife.

victor809 wrote:


somehow you described a chapter in the Kama Sutra AND violated Kosher dietary laws in one sexually taboo scenario.

Kudos.
View All Posts by User
victor809
11 years ago

Victor they knew she was religious. They didn't raise the stink about it, others did and now she's going to lose her home.

The difference you fail to see is religious people see weddings as a RELIGIOUS ceremony entering a covenent with God.

Fried rice is a little different holmes.

Religious folks don't see marriage as a state affair even though that's what it's become now. I understand why you can't see that but it's frustrating that some who aren't as open to THINKING about things aren't willing to try.

ZRX1200 wrote:



dude... it may be a religious ceremony, but it isn't HER religion. Her religion doesn't allow gay marriage. Therefore it is defacto some other religion's ceremony. Does she provide flowers to jewish weddings?

I don't like laws either. I don't like the gov't telling business owners what to do.
But, on the other hand, these people are making zero sense, and they appear to be specifically choosing what services they want to perform not based on whether it violates their religion (they aren't getting gay married) but to make a stand about how they feel the customer's sexual orientation should be viewed legally (ie, not allowed to get married legally).

View All Posts by User
victor809
11 years ago

somehow you described a chapter in the Kama Sutra AND violated Kosher dietary laws in one sexually taboo scenario.

Kudos.

frankj1 wrote:



It's ok. All the wives are separated by doilies with holes in the middle. You can do anything you want as long as there's a doily in between, right?
View All Posts by User
ZRX1200
11 years ago
It's against her religion, and some want to coerce participation. Not a difficult thing to comprehend.
View All Posts by User
victor809
11 years ago

It's against her religion, and some want to coerce participation. Not a difficult thing to comprehend.

ZRX1200 wrote:



It's against her religion for her to marry a woman.

Is it against her religion for her to hang flowers at a gay wedding?

If your entire point is that it's requiring her to be in proximity to something that violates her religion, then that takes us back to the mormons serving sandwiches at an event with alcohol.

If your entire point is that she's enabling a violation of her religion by providing flowers, she did that every day by selling them flowers. And she does that every day by selling flowers to single men who use them to get laid by their non-wives...

Hell, if you're christian and you set your friend up with some woman and they bang before they get married... you've violated your religion more than this scenario she's so afraid of.

Again... I'm not a fan of the whole "coerce participation" idea either. (although really... hanging flowers isn't exactly "participation"... but both sides are blowing things out of proportion, so I'll let it slide)... but why are laws generally in place? To keep people from being d$cks to each other.
View All Posts by User
Abrignac
11 years ago
Fair Housing v. Berkeley, 454 U.S. 290, 294 ,
"the practice of persons sharing common views banding together to achieve a common end is deeply embedded in the American political process." We recognized that "by collective effort individuals can make their views known, when, individually, their voices would be faint
View All Posts by User
Users browsing this topic
Mobile! Terms | Privacy | Contact Us | Help | © 1998-2026, CigarBid.com