victor809
11 years ago

Really? Here's how I read you argument. You seem to want dismiss the validity of any notion that believers should be able to disassociate from non-believers.

The Bible is many things to many people. To some it is a fictional account of history. To others it is the "Good Book" which guides ones behavior.

I suggest that those who fall into the "Good Book' category take the Bible into it's totality. Therefore, it seems



tells them to withdraw from sinners.

And


specifies a very specific sin.


Therein lies the quandary.

Abrignac wrote:


You're really picking and choosing here. Leviticus is old testament. Thessalonians is new testament. If you're going to say Thessalonians means she has to withdraw from sinners, as defined in the old testament, then why just the gays? Why doesn't she withdraw from all adulterers? Did she supply flowers to any wedding where the couple had sex before the wedding? You're picking and choosing your sins here (and for that matter, you're choosing one with a single oblique reference in thousands of pages, over ones that are primary commandments).

I'm asking for logic, Anthony. I'm not saying people can't go on with their religious selves, but when a person cites "religious" reasons for something that is a minor footnote of their tract, while not applying even close to the same criteria for other commands... then their excuse seems "flimsy" and it sounds like they're hiding behind religion to make a political statement.

We all know religion has been used in the past to justify horrible treatment of blacks. There were plenty of people, Senators, religious officials, who believed that intermarriage was a violation of the purity god gave the whites... would you allow a florist to deny service to an interracial couple based on those beliefs any more than you'd allow a diner to hang a "no blacks" sign?


There can be no argument that the freedom to practice one's religion is absolute and free from state intervention. The SCOTUS has made that abundantly clear. What is not so clear is what defines a religious practice.


It is most definitely not absolute and free from state intervention. I could come up with all sorts of religious practices I've decided I want to follow that the state won't allow. If I decided some obscure tract of the bible actually meant I should snort coke every morning, I'm sure someone would disagree. Hell, I don't even need to look in the christian bible... I can write my own. But that doesn't change the fact that illegal practices are not automatically "ok" just because someone says it's part of their religion.


On the other hand, other than to provoke an argument, why do you care?


I don't really care. Mainly I just find it interesting, the intersection of people's rights. I've said elsewhere that I'd be OK with businesses actually discriminating against groups, as long as they post it clearly on their front door. If the florist had a big sign saying "No Gays allowed", I'd think the whole thing would have shaken out a bit fairer.
victor809
11 years ago

I agree with this entire post.




Yes, between a man and a woman - its the only kind. And an army of activist judges will never change that. Nor will an army of liberal activists force us to change our minds over it. Even if you agree to label that as hate, phobia, discrimination etc. - its not going to change the minds of those who believe the word of God.

Bitter Klinger wrote:



Um... clearly you're wrong. I've many friends who are two men, or two women married to each other. So you're wrong. Simply put, a wedding occurred, and two people walked away married, and both people were either men or women.

To think that your specific religion has the only definition of marriage at all in the world is just... well.... shortsighted and stupid. You're practically a muslim extremist... I'm just waiting for you to jump out from around the corner ululating and carrying a curved blade.
banderl
11 years ago

Um... clearly you're wrong. I've many friends who are two men, or two women married to each other. So you're wrong. Simply put, a wedding occurred, and two people walked away married, and both people were either men or women.

To think that your specific religion has the only definition of marriage at all in the world is just... well.... shortsighted and stupid. You're practically a muslim extremist... I'm just waiting for you to jump out from around the corner ululating and carrying a curved blade.

victor809 wrote:




Like the Gurkha guy?
Breakout3030
11 years ago
It's actually much simpler than you all think.

Let's take the Holy Bible and Christian teachings in its entirety. First, Christians are saved by grace. This grace can only be given by God when a sinner had confessed they have sinned and repented of those sins making a promise to God to lead a more Christ-like life and then follow in believers baptism to make it a more public profession of faith.

We are also taught to love the sinner but hate the sin. We all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We are not here to judge one another because that is for God to do on His day of judgement.

The problem with "gay weddings" is that they directly contradict biblical teachings both in morality and righteousness. Homosexuals, under biblical teachings, are not living a Godly life as they do not believe their sexual preferences are in contradiction to scripture.

As Christians we are taught not to support, aid-in, or partake in sinful behavior when we know it goes against God's word. It is considered sacrilegious (which is an unforgivable sin).

Simply stated, homosexuals living an immoral lifestyle in contradiction to scriptural teachings are basically asking for Christians to support their blasphemy of God's laws by participating in anything that isn't scriptural.

That same florist should decline service to a patron who openly admitted to buying flowers for his mistress rather than his wife. However, I'm sure that patron isn't running around telling everyone his sinful ways and asking us all to be tolerant of his adultery. This is exactly what homosexuals are doing. Remember when homosexuals said "our lifestyle will never affect your lifestyle" or "giving us [gay community] our rights will not affect your [Christians] rights"...I do

This is akin to an abortion clinic asking a Christian bakery to cater their 1,000,000 abortion party.

Christians can do business with all kinds of sinners until it becomes blasphemy and violates our own personal convictions where our faith is concerned.
victor809
11 years ago

It's actually much simpler than you all think.

Let's take the Holy Bible and Christian teachings in its entirety. First, Christians are saved by grace. This grace can only be given by God when a sinner had confessed they have sinned and repented of those sins making a promise to God to lead a more Christ-like life and then follow in believers baptism to make it a more public profession of faith.

We are also taught to love the sinner but hate the sin. We all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We are not here to judge one another because that is for God to do on His day of judgement.

The problem with "gay weddings" is that they directly contradict biblical teachings both in morality and righteousness. Homosexuals, under biblical teachings, are not living a Godly life as they do not believe their sexual preferences are in contradiction to scripture.

As Christians we are taught not to support, aid-in, or partake in sinful behavior when we know it goes against God's word. It is considered sacrilegious (which is an unforgivable sin).

Simply stated, homosexuals living an immoral lifestyle in contradiction to scriptural teachings are basically asking for Christians to support their blasphemy of God's laws by participating in anything that isn't scriptural.

That same florist should decline service to a patron who openly admitted to buying flowers for his mistress rather than his wife. However, I'm sure that patron isn't running around telling everyone his sinful ways and asking us all to be tolerant of his adultery. This is exactly what homosexuals are doing. Remember when homosexuals said "our lifestyle will never affect your lifestyle" or "giving us [gay community] our rights will not affect your [Christians] rights"...I do

This is akin to an abortion clinic asking a Christian bakery to cater their 1,000,000 abortion party.

Christians can do business with all kinds of sinners until it becomes blasphemy and violates our own personal convictions where our faith is concerned.

Breakout3030 wrote:




.... And by that logic I would expect that the same florist then denies service to any jewish weddings, muslim weddings, atheist weddings etc? I mean, not believing in your christian god (or believing in a different god altogether) one of the big daddy sins there isn't it?
frankj1
11 years ago
cancel the cake I ordered for the bris.
They refused to make it without the foreskin.
Breakout3030
11 years ago

.... And by that logic I would expect that the same florist then denies service to any jewish weddings, muslim weddings, atheist weddings etc? I mean, not believing in your christian god (or believing in a different god altogether) one of the big daddy sins there isn't it?

victor809 wrote:



It's splitting hairs but on a technicality it would be considered the same. However, those groups you just mentioned are respectful enough to not push the issue and patron businesses who are like minded and follow or identify with their respective faiths.

I suppose we have a shortage of gay owned bakeries and florists. Might be a good business venture for you Victor.
victor809
11 years ago

It's splitting hairs but on a technicality it would be considered the same. However, those groups you just mentioned are respectful enough to not push the issue and patron businesses who are like minded and follow or identify with their respective faiths.

I suppose we have a shortage of gay owned bakeries and florists. Might be a good business venture for you Victor.

Breakout3030 wrote:



I'm going to disagree with you there. I don't think that's a "technicality"... what I've heard of your god, he gets pretty damn pissed when someone's following those false idols. Doesn't he kill a bunch of people, or burn crops, or give them syphilis or something? And I don't think those groups are not going to push the issue for a second. Try it... tell a couple you won't cater/emflower/whatever their wedding because they're jewish... or kwanzaneese... or buddhist. .. well maybe the buddhists would let it go, they're pretty damn laid back.

But most groups would scream bloody murder if they got denied service because of their religious denomination.

Hell, I hear christians on this forum complain about the war on christians constantly. Imagine how much they'd howl if a buddhist baker refused to cater their wedding because it would be a sin against the great fat one (or whatever they call him).

And that's just weddings.
By your statement, if a hotel manager sees a guy check in with a woman who isn't his wife, he could deny them service based on his religious objections?

And that's not even gettting really into the weeds of what constitutes "supporting, aiding in or partaking in sinful behavior when we know it goes against gods will"... is serving breakfast to a porn producer daily considered "supporting" in sinful behavior? What about advertisers? Aren't they directly causing the whole "covet" thing? If you serve them lunch aren't you aiding in that?

^ now THAT's how you do technicalities. 🙂 Obviously I'm getting obscure here, but this is the problem. And this is why religion and laws DON'T mix. religion gets to be vague, because no one really cares. Laws can't be. So you very literally cannot make laws that allow people to interpret them based on their own religious interpretations. You will have an absolute disaster... people are d%cks.
Abrignac
11 years ago
Victor, you are arguing simply for argument's sake and are completely missing the point.

You are trying to apply the scientific process to a completely unprovable point. You are looking for rationality where none exists. Since you know none exists you assume the premise is false. That's what scientists do.

Religion is the complete opposite. There is no tangible proof of a higher being. People of faith, be it Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc... have faith that the teachings are true. But, at the end of the day it's entirely subjective and people will believe what they have faith in.
TMCTLT
11 years ago

I can't speak for Tony, but I had to wait until noon a couple Sunday's ago to but a bottle of rum.

Abrignac wrote:




That's how MI. is set up as well Anthony, here in IN. NO Sunday sales....period. Comes up on the ballot virtually every year and every year they vote it DOWN.



As far as the rest goes.....I read the title and then who posted it......and said to myself.....HUH Really????? 🌫
fiddler898
11 years ago
I should really hang around the politics forum more often. It apparently contains entire schools of theology I never came across in seminary.

I wonder how many CEUs this qualifies for?
MACS
11 years ago
“God maintains a delicate balance between keeping his existence sufficiently evident so people will know he's there and yet hiding his presence enough so that people who want to choose to ignore him can do it. This way, their choice of destiny is really free.”

“If you were to force people to do something against their free choice, you would be dehumanizing them. The option of forcing everyone to go to heaven is immoral, because it's dehumanizing; it strips them of the dignity of making their own decision; it denies them their freedom of choice; and it treats them as a means to an end. When God allows people to say 'no' to him, he actually respects and dignifies them.”

- J.P. Moreland

I found these two quotes of his very thought provoking.
DrafterX
11 years ago
Do you know what they call a Quarter-Pounder with cheese in France..?? 😟
tailgater
11 years ago
For the record.
This is all the gays fault. They weren't satisfied with a civil union. It HAD to be called marriage.
I've discussed this before, but they are their own worst enemies at times.
The religious right is a huge and powerful and often immobile beast. They need to be pulled into accepting new ideas, not pushed. The gay community has shown that acceptance is not enough. They demand to be embraced. Equal doesn't always mean same. The gays got hung up on the word marriage. This is what happens and regardless of which viewpoint you have you shouldn't be surprised.
DrafterX
11 years ago
Bigot... 😟
DrafterX
11 years ago
just kiddin of course... 😟
frankj1
11 years ago

I should really hang around the politics forum more often. It apparently contains entire schools of theology I never came across in seminary.

I wonder how many CEUs this qualifies for?

fiddler898 wrote:


don't worry, I was covering for you while you were out. I grew up across the street from the Andover-Newton Theological Seminary, figured that qualifies me...
















yeah, sorry about that.
fiddler898
11 years ago

don't worry, I was covering for you while you were out. I grew up across the street from the Andover-Newton Theological Seminary, figured that qualifies me...
















yeah, sorry about that.

frankj1 wrote:




That explains your complete lack of orthodoxy. Refreshing, really.
ZRX1200
11 years ago
Yes Frank is like a Summerbreeze.....

Frank I can't pass up a feminine hygiene joke sorry.
DrafterX
11 years ago
The summer wind,
came blowin' in
from across the sea.... :-"
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