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Tittums
Aficionado Topic Starter

6 years ago

I wasn't sure if this was going to qualify for "cigar related" so I went ahead and posted here. I currently have a mix of multiple salts and salt+sucrose mixture that is in the 69-70% range and 68-70% range respectively. With these mixes locked down I moved on to testing the water vapor transfer rate (WVTR) of various air pillows we all get in our packages and am running into an unexpected issue with these.

Long story short, I was hoping someone with a hygrometer, these air pillows and a food-saver (for sealing) could try the same experiment with me. As you can see in the picture it is not going above 70-71% despite it being filled with normal tap water. To be this is very confusing because I was expecting high 80s to 90s since there is only water.

All I did was cut open the air pillow, filled it with water, then sealed it with my food saver and placed it in a ziplock with 3 hygrometers. The RH was around 58% before placing it inside (yes, my house has high humidity, it is florida) and after 12 hours it has not gone over 71% RH.

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dstieger
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

Wrong forum, nerd.....I mean, noob

Are you trying to learn something? Or just playing? What is it you want to know?

Paging Mr. jtokash

KingoftheCove
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

The confabulated distiller cone in your hygrometer is picking up a positive ionic charge from the sucrose, which is isolating the negative electrode on the RH sensor.
Use raw cane sugar, and it should work.

jespear
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

Way too much work, (well, for ME, anyway).
I just use the Heartfelt Beads, and I'm good to go.

dstieger
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

Wait...what....

When I read this earlier..well, skimmed, really....I thought you were talking about the humicare pillows...and still thought it a bit crazy. But, as I reread....you are doing some kind of testing experimenting with water in packing air pillows? What?

KingoftheCove
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

dstieger wrote:

Yeah, like I said..........cane sugar.

Tittums
Aficionado Topic Starter

6 years ago

KingoftheCove wrote:

I don't plan on using a salt+sugar solution for this and right now there is only distilled water in the testing bag so I am confused why it's stuck at 70-71%.

dstieger wrote:

Yes, that is exactly it. Long story short, DIY Boveda packs. But the plastic air pillows I have been using all stop releasing once the environment reaches 71%. Since there is nothing but distilled water in these air pillows I am confused as to why it is getting stuck at 71%.

Basically, if anyone is bored, interested in testing this, keep their air pillows on hand, and have a food saver to seal water in them I was curious if they could get higher than 71% with nothing but distilled water in the sealed pillow. I am just trying to find a proper package for the salt solution at this point. Once I figure that out I will post my results and solutions then ask for suggestions on lower RH packs to work on.

KingoftheCove
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

I don't plan on using a salt+sugar solution for this and right now there is only distilled water in the testing bag so I am confused why it's stuck at 70-71%.

Tittums wrote:

Just talkin chit dude.
Making your own Bovedas?
Good for you! They’re just cheap enough, and easy enough to maintain and recharge, for me to not bother with trying to make my own.
Good luck in your quest.

Tittums
Aficionado Topic Starter

6 years ago

KingoftheCove wrote:

I figured, and yeah they are cheap but I am stubborn. I look at $40 for a brick of 12 and go "I can buy the salts in them for less than that and make more than 12 67 gram packs".

victor809
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

#10

I'm honestly surprised the plastic pillows release that much moisture. Are you sure you aren't getting an increase to 71% from droplets of water on the outside (contamination from filling/sealing)?

Further, if in fact you are getting a real result here (sufficient water vapor escaping the pillows to raise humidity from 58% to 71%) then you would almost want to call the experiment a success. You don't intend to keep your cigars above 65% (I hope), so you will have to put some mixture into the pillows which will slow your water vapor release to ensure you don't over humidify.

The bigger problem would be going the other way. How will you remove humidity from the humidor if it goes over?

Tittums
Aficionado Topic Starter

6 years ago

#11

victor809 wrote:

I dried the bag after sealing then let it sit for an hour before putting it in the bag so there shouldn't be contamination.

I am not sure of the applications for higher than 70% but I am annoyed that it is not going much higher than that when there is only water present. I believe above 70% is for seasoning and instruments?

As for two-way, these should be two-way but I have not tested. Quoting from one of Boveda's patents:

Typical films that meet the requirements of the present invention include food wrap films of
polyvinylchloride, microfiberous polyethylene (TYVEK® from Dupont), Hytrel® (DuPont), microporous
polyethylene, high density polyethylene, oriented polystyrene, cellophane, polycarbonate, and the
like that have WVTR of 3 grams or more.

Hytrel has been used in all their patents (from what they claim in them) but I cannot find this stuff in small amounts so I am working with the air pillows which at least one of them is inked with HDPE.+

Ultimately, I would like to get my salt solution packaged in something that releases (and pulls moisture out of the air) faster than these are. I am going to test an actual boveda to see how quickly it brings things up to ambient later today.

And just as I checked things to pull a graph for you things are up to 72%

https://i.imgur.com/eDwbZC1.jpg

Edited by user 6 years ago | Reason: Not specified

victor809
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

#12

Tittums wrote:

That's a really good graph. It shows pretty clearly that what we are seeing isn't contamination, but instead release of the water vapor. That seems clear by the asymptotic nature of the graph. There is some RH in the bag at which the pressure of water vapor in the bag is equal to that across the membrane.

As to why we're tapped out at 70ish percent... let me look.

victor809
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

#13

I wonder if your inner bag is holding you back. You have a very large percentage of that volume made up of liquid water, that means that any vaporization of the water has to be done in a smaller space, leading to a lower concentration of gaseous water molecules. You're limited there by vapor pressure.

I would be curious if there is a difference if you were to try a second pillow, only like 1/3 full of water, but with air taking up the other 2/3. You might get a different top end.

Tittums
Aficionado Topic Starter

6 years ago

#14

As for testing two-way, I should be able to leave a pillow with nothing but sodium chloride in it and a cup of water next to it for a few days, remove the water and things should be around 75%. My AC is crap as is my state so I am stuck at around 58% ambient in my home so there is room for the salt to absorb more moisture even if it is already contaminated by ambient humidity.

Tittums
Aficionado Topic Starter

6 years ago

#15

So I guess I was wrong about it not releasing moisture fast enough. HDPE is viable as suggested in the patent.

https://i.imgur.com/eJvWMHA.jpg

With that done I am going to make a 50 gram pack with just sodium chloride in it weighed on my AWS-100 then put it in the test bag with a cup of water to see how much water it takes in over a few days. The AWS-100 is supposed to be accurate within 0.02 grams and it weights down to 0.01 so I will see even the slightest change.

tamapatom
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

#16

I wonder if Victor's inner bag is holding him back..........

victor809
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

#17

...no .... It's the one on the outside. The one I married.

.... Oh.... Bag... I thought you said... Nevermind...

Tittums
Aficionado Topic Starter

6 years ago

#18

So these air pillows only function one-way as far as vapor goes. I made a 50 gram pack with nothing but sodium chloride and it only gained 0.02 grams while in a ziplock with a cup of water (it was 90% humidity) after 24 hours. That is within the margin of error the AWS-100 has.

For now, I am going to use them as a one-way system since they still function as a barrier to the salts. I might try Tyvek at a later date since I can pick up envelopes made of that material at the post office but for the time being I am not sure where to get the Hytrel stuff Boveda uses.

gummy jones
Herf-A-Holic

6 years ago

#19

I find romaine is superior to iceberg

Tittums
Aficionado Topic Starter

6 years ago

#20

I find romaine is superior to iceberg

gummy jones wrote:

My friend calls that salmonella lettuce since it is constantly getting recalled. I do agree about it being superior though.

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