Abrignac
2 years ago
I’ve seen the argument that since the Federal Reserve isn’t mentioned in the Constitution it’s illegal. Yet that argument seems to be indirect conflict with its the Constitution.

For example:

Article 1 Section 8:

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

From what source does the government obtain borrowed funds? Who sets those rates and upon what criteria?


To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

The setting of interest rates certainly is a component of regulating commerce since interest rates determine how money is borrowed to carry out commerce.

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

By setting a rate of interest one controls the supply of money is which effects it’s purchasing power thus its value.

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other

Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.



This is akin to saying the State Department or any other agency is illegal since it was specifically named in the Constitution.
RayR
2 years ago
That's not the issue Anthony and you are trying to read those words in the Constitution very broadly which is where the political mischief and corruption comes from.

The FED just like the previous failed 1st and 2nd central banks of the United States is not a government agency, it is a monopoly charter given by Congress that functions like a banking cartel.

Short and sweet here:

How the Federal Reserve is a Scam - G. Edward Griffin

?si=Hsq2xn3EjvOzQMrM


For more in-depth understanding read G. Edward Griffin's The Creature From Jekyll Island
It's a classic.

Free eBook version here:
https://archive.org/details/TheCreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.EdwardGriffin 

BookTV: G. Edward Griffin, "The Creature from Jekyll Island"

?si=ZFby5ON2HmhAjQp2
jeebling
2 years ago

This is the only part that I question. Who is going to regulate the FED since the FED is a creature of Congress that operates under secrecy?
You can't even get Congress to audit the FED. The FED is run by central planning banksters from an ivory tower.
The FED is allegedly an independent and nonpolitical entity but the FED in reality is run by political appointees and does the bidding of whatever regime is in power.

The FED's track record is an unblemished record of failure. You'll have ask Robert to defend the status quo.

In 1996 the Mises Institute produced a documentary, Money, Banking, and the Federal Reserve
It offers a good historical background

?si=_6Z2XD5dYXQ8UZdd

RayR wrote:



I watched it. It’s a great reinforcement and reminder on the topic. Thanks.
Abrignac
2 years ago
Obviously there is room for improvement. Not really sure what those improvements would be entail though. At present it seems much like the FDA in that the fox is guarding the hen house.

For those who would advocate for it’s abolishment what do you suggest as its replacement?

Currently all interbank checks are cleared through the Fed. How would this be facilitated in its absence? In its absence would each bank then have to set up a system to clear every other bank in the United States? What about overseas transactions? How would those be cleared?

How would individual banks be monitored? At present the Fed monitors every bank in the United States. This is but one way liquidity is maintained. They are responsible for shutting down banks before customers funds are lost do to mismanagement. Absent the Fed what agency do we create to do this?

Of course the Fed also sets interest rates. In its absence how would rates be set? Certainly not by Congress. They can’t even pass a budget. Does anyone seriously think they could agree on interest rates? Article One clearly states “ but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;”. What about the President as Trump has advocated? Do we have want someone who is fiscally irresponsible to set a corresponding interest rate to mitigate the effects of bad policy decisions?

Those are but three functions the Fed performs. What about the many more? What inefficient bureaucracies would we create to replace the Fed?

I’ll be the first to admit the Federal Reserve system is flawed. But it makes much more sense to fix what can be fixed than to throw the baby out with the bath water and bring great instability to the economy.
Speyside2
2 years ago
Thomas Jefferson was alive through the first 12 amendments. The 16th amendment is about taxation which Jefferson had a definitive viewpoint that is valid to this day. The 16th amendment is an increase in federal authority. The 22nd amendment repeals the 18th amendment that was an increase in federal authority. While there are other amendments about the federal government none increase federal authority.
jeebling
2 years ago

Obviously there is room for improvement. Not really sure what those improvements would be entail though. At present it seems much like the FDA in that the fox is guarding the hen house.

For those who would advocate for it’s abolishment what do you suggest as its replacement?

Currently all interbank checks are cleared through the Fed. How would this be facilitated in its absence? In its absence would each bank then have to set up a system to clear every other bank in the United States? What about overseas transactions? How would those be cleared?

How would individual banks be monitored? At present the Fed monitors every bank in the United States. This is but one way liquidity is maintained. They are responsible for shutting down banks before customers funds are lost do to mismanagement. Absent the Fed what agency do we create to do this?

Of course the Fed also sets interest rates. In its absence how would rates be set? Certainly not by Congress. They can’t even pass a budget. Does anyone seriously think they could agree on interest rates? Article One clearly states “ but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;”. What about the President as Trump has advocated? Do we have want someone who is fiscally irresponsible to set a corresponding interest rate to mitigate the effects of bad policy decisions?

Those are but three functions the Fed performs. What about the many more? What inefficient bureaucracies would we create to replace the Fed?

I’ll be the first to admit the Federal Reserve system is flawed. But it makes much more sense to fix what can be fixed than to throw the baby out with the bath water and bring great instability to the economy.

Abrignac wrote:



What to replace it with? When you have cancer removed, what do you replace it with?

Immediate proposals for improvement
The FED should be audited by independent auditors
The FED should abolish closed door secret meetings and video every meeting and release transcript to media and public

The FED should sell off all government debt and close the discount window which would force banks to compete in the market for interest rates. This would be the “true” cost of money that more realistically indicates risk environment. That’s where and how the interest rate would be set. The government doesn’t need to artificially set the rate. This is private enterprise and not the purview of duties, excise, etc..

The FED should sell off its balance sheet. Why does the government own mortgages and corporate paper? This trifling interferes with the natural modulation of free markets and contributes to boom / bust redistribution of money and it favors the wealthy

The FED didn’t insure the largest banks in our country which produced “too big to fail “ crises Lehman, etc, this is a structural hazard to our economy while at the same time the FED insurance that now covers the largest institutions encourages unlimited risk taking by large banks who otherwise would guard against insolvency, restrict loans to qualified consumers, increase deposits and create efficient and self-regulating banks because they don’t want to face the consequences of bank failures. They’d have more skin in the game. This is an example of how the government tried to fix something but unintentionally increased the risk. This is one reason the FED should be abolished. Banks that fail will be bought by other banks. Deposits up to a nominal amount, $250K or $500K or whatever can be easily figured out by requiring banks to have insurance on domestic and household accounts.

- these are just a few thoughts on the criticisms I have for the FED. Difficult to fully express ideas on a cigar forum but I think you get some of my ideas from this. These aren’t all the answers and I don’t have all the answers, and be sure of that! lol. Just offering discussion.
jeebling
2 years ago
Funny that they’re always right there at the tippy top

Looking at the richest counties in the U.S., the No. 1 spot is claimed by Loudoun County, Virginia. This county comprises a significant part of the Washington, D.C. metro area, and reports a median household income of $142,299 as of 2019. That’s up 26% from the 2010 household median income of $115,574.
rfenst
  • rfenst
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
2 years ago

^

You always want to hear what people think Yes I do. I want to learn opposing views and make my mind up but rarely say what you think. That's b.s. You can ask me what I think anytime and I will answer or you can just ask one or two of CBID's Oracles. They always think they know what "non-conservatives" think. LOL.

You even told me that a couple days ago in the Western Democracy thread, "As to "ask Fenster" you do not know much of my opinions." Correct. You do not know because you do not ask. People ascribe opinions to others here, particularly to "non-conservatives", with great abandon. I have no desire to dig myself out of a hole someone has falsely attributed to me based on their exaggerated perception of my views- and what they guess my opinions are.

Why do you always ask questions but rarely answer them? I ask questions simply to learn from others.

Please synthesize all that information from your first two copy and paste posts into a paragraph, and then tell me what you think the about the Federal Reserve. See next post.

If you don't have time I understand, I'll probably end up reading these articles later, but, at the very least, do you agree with all the articles that you copy and paste No. or are you just posting them for discussion purposes? It is not that I don't have time. I have already read every article in full before I post it. What I might highlight is what I often think is what should be considered in coming to a conclusion. And, very often I post articles solely for discussion purposes. People can read whatever they want of what I post. Or not.

RobertHively wrote:


rfenst
  • rfenst
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
2 years ago

Obviously there is room for improvement. Not really sure what those improvements would be entail though. At present it seems much like the FDA in that the fox is guarding the hen house.

For those who would advocate for it’s abolishment what do you suggest as its replacement?

Currently all interbank checks are cleared through the Fed. How would this be facilitated in its absence? In its absence would each bank then have to set up a system to clear every other bank in the United States? What about overseas transactions? How would those be cleared?

How would individual banks be monitored? At present the Fed monitors every bank in the United States. This is but one way liquidity is maintained. They are responsible for shutting down banks before customers funds are lost do to mismanagement. Absent the Fed what agency do we create to do this?

Of course the Fed also sets interest rates. In its absence how would rates be set? Certainly not by Congress. They can’t even pass a budget. Does anyone seriously think they could agree on interest rates? Article One clearly states “ but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;”. What about the President as Trump has advocated? Do we have want someone who is fiscally irresponsible to set a corresponding interest rate to mitigate the effects of bad policy decisions?

Those are but three functions the Fed performs. What about the many more? What inefficient bureaucracies would we create to replace the Fed? =d>

I’ll be the first to admit the Federal Reserve system is flawed. But it makes much more sense to fix what can be fixed than to throw the baby out with the bath water and bring great instability to the economy.

Abrignac wrote:


I agree with much of your explanations and descriptions here.

I guess my real question is why do people want to "burn it down" without complete understanding of all of the Fed's functions and immediate, effective, efficient. systems to take its place and to avoid international financial disaster? I wonder out loud if it is just too late in the game to prevent a financial crisis, possibly the likes of which, we have never seen by "burning it down."
RayR
2 years ago

I agree with much of your explanations and descriptions here.

I guess my real question is why do people want to "burn it down" without complete understanding of all of the Fed's functions and immediate, effective, efficient. systems to take its place and to avoid international financial disaster? I wonder out loud if it is just too late in the game to prevent a financial crisis, possibly the likes of which, we have never seen by "burning it down."

rfenst wrote:



I don't know if you've been paying attention to the FED's "effective, efficient. systems to avoid international financial disaster" but their track record isn't so good, more like repeated horrible inflationary and boom and bust cycles.
You are right in in thinking that "it is just too late in the game to prevent a financial crisis, possibly the likes of which, we have never seen" but that won't happen by burning down the FED, that will happen by keeping the FED alive.


As Rothbard wrote in The Case Against the Fed
https://mises.org/library/book/case-against-fed 

"There is only one way to eliminate chronic inflation, as well as the booms and busts brought by that system of inflationary credit: and that is to eliminate the counterfeiting that constitutes and creates that inflation. And the only way to do that is to abolish legalized counterfeiting: that is, to abolish the Federal Reserve System, and return to the gold standard, to a monetary system where a market-produced metal, such as gold, serves as the standard money, and not paper tickets printed by the Federal Reserve."





DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Thomas Jefferson was alive through the first 12 amendments. The 16th amendment is about taxation which Jefferson had a definitive viewpoint that is valid to this day. The 16th amendment is an increase in federal authority. The 22nd amendment repeals the 18th amendment that was an increase in federal authority. While there are other amendments about the federal government none increase federal authority.

Speyside2 wrote:




What's your point here?

I put the quote up because the Federalist Papers outlined to the general public exactly what the Founding Fathers had planned to ratify for this new nation with regards to the Constitution. He was clearly aware of what Alexander Hamilton was detailing in them. He understood the inherent evil that was to come.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2011/11/06/thomas-jefferson-warned-the-nation-about-the-power-of-the-banks/?sh=84959822b18b [/b][/i]


Couple this with the out of control spending the Federal government is allowed to get away with and you have a debt that is:

https://www.usdebtclock.org/ [/i][/color][/size]
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

I agree with much of your explanations and descriptions here.

I guess my real question is why do people want to "burn it down" without complete understanding of all of the Fed's functions and immediate, effective, efficient. systems to take its place and to avoid international financial disaster? I wonder out loud if it is just too late in the game to prevent a financial crisis, possibly the likes of which, we have never seen by "burning it down."

rfenst wrote:




My take on the Federal Reserve is what Ron Paul warned us all about. They need to be audited. It's a criminal enterprise.
jeebling
2 years ago

I agree with much of your explanations and descriptions here.

I guess my real question is why do people want to "burn it down" without complete understanding of all of the Fed's functions and immediate, effective, efficient. systems to take its place and to avoid international financial disaster? I wonder out loud if it is just too late in the game to prevent a financial crisis, possibly the likes of which, we have never seen by "burning it down."

rfenst wrote:



My argument is that the FED is the instrument of financial disaster. It has failed in its mission. The market economy can’t self-regulate under the FED.
Abrignac
2 years ago
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies,” Jefferson wrote. ” If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around(these banks) will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” ~ Thomas Jefferson


He was correct however he offered no alternative. In reality at this point in time it’s literally impossible to make the decisions required consistent with his quote since Congress acts as proxy for the people and they can’t agree on hardly anything.

That said every single document and dealings of the Fed should be open to the public at all times and audited by the GAO on a regular basis as is all Federal agencies.
Abrignac
2 years ago

My take on the Federal Reserve is what Ron Paul warned us all about. They need to be audited. It's a criminal enterprise.

DrMaddVibe wrote:



I’m curious. What laws have they broken?
jeebling
2 years ago
Fraud, of course. They have cheated middle class Americans out of their savings and retirement plans for the purpose of the political gain of the government. These changes they make to the monetary system are not approved by representation but by political appointees. This is fraud.
RayR
2 years ago

“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies,” Jefferson wrote. ” If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around(these banks) will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” ~ Thomas Jefferson


He was correct however he offered no alternative. In reality at this point in time it’s literally impossible to make the decisions required consistent with his quote since Congress acts as proxy for the people and they can’t agree on hardly anything.

That said every single document and dealings of the Fed should be open to the public at all times and audited by the GAO on a regular basis as is all Federal agencies.

Abrignac wrote:



It is true that Jefferson was suspicious of banking establishments that issued paper money and he was against racking up public debt but under the name of funding but there are a lot of spurious quotations thrown around that Jefferson didn't say or misquotations of what he actually said.
You can't believe everything you read on the Internet.

Private Banks (Spurious Quotation)
https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/private-banks-spurious-quotation/ [/color]

Abrignac
2 years ago

Fraud, of course. They have cheated middle class Americans out of their savings and retirement plans for the purpose of the political gain of the government. These changes they make to the monetary system are not approved by representation but by political appointees. This is fraud.

jeebling wrote:




Nonsense

The Fed was chartered by Congress and is governed by numerous laws since passed by Congress and signed into law by what ever President was in office at the time. Last I checked Congress acts as the representatives of the people so as long as their actions are consistent with those mandates then in fact their actions by extension are approved by the people. Everything the Fed does is by direction of Congress. The idea that they make up their own rules as the go along is preposterous.

Perhaps a Civics refresher course is needed. Congress passes laws that specifies broad mandates which act as a framework. In most cases it simply specifies what agency is tasked with making up the rules and providing oversight. However, Congress doesn’t specify exactly every little nuance about what the agency does. Sorry but I don’t think Congress specifies the toilet paper color or the air freshener. They leave that up to the agency tasked with the framework. Then Congress performs oversight to ensure the agency is functioning as directed. The Fed is simply another agency that happens to be quasi-public.

As far as the fraud of mismanagement of monetary policy which has robbed people of their savings and pensions is concerned that’s equally preposterous. I’ve taken a few college level economics classes which fought me that macroeconomics is most unpredictable. It is beyond foolish to think that anything better than an educated guess is possible. There are simply to many variables that depending on how they interact can cause the best laid plans to come unraveled.

I get you have an axe to grind for some reason. Perhaps you’ve watched a few YouTube videos produced by some conspiracy theorist. Maybe you made a few chitty and ill advised investments that went south. Who knows? Regardless Congress desperately needs to perform its oversight function with regards to the Fed.

DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Nonsense

The Fed was chartered by Congress and is governed by numerous laws since passed by Congress and signed into law by what ever President was in office at the time. Last I checked Congress acts as the representatives of the people so as long as their actions are consistent with those mandates then in fact their actions by extension are approved by the people. Everything the Fed does is by direction of Congress. The idea that they make up their own rules as the go along is preposterous.

Perhaps a Civics refresher course is needed. Congress passes laws that specifies broad mandates which act as a framework. In most cases it simply specifies what agency is tasked with making up the rules and providing oversight. However, Congress doesn’t specify exactly every little nuance about what the agency does. Sorry but I don’t think Congress specifies the toilet paper color or the air freshener. They leave that up to the agency tasked with the framework. Then Congress performs oversight to ensure the agency is functioning as directed. The Fed is simply another agency that happens to be quasi-public.

As far as the fraud of mismanagement of monetary policy which has robbed people of their savings and pensions is concerned that’s equally preposterous. I’ve taken a few college level economics classes which fought me that macroeconomics is most unpredictable. It is beyond foolish to think that anything better than an educated guess is possible. There are simply to many variables that depending on how they interact can cause the best laid plans to come unraveled.

I get you have an axe to grind for some reason. Perhaps you’ve watched a few YouTube videos produced by some conspiracy theorist. Maybe you made a few chitty and ill advised investments that went south. Who knows? Regardless Congress desperately needs to perform its oversight function with regards to the Fed.

Abrignac wrote:




You really need to do a bit of research into what went on on Jekyll Island. The swindle was high up and all the players were there.
RobertHively
2 years ago

You really need to do a bit of research into what went on on Jekyll Island. The swindle was high up and all the players were there.

DrMaddVibe wrote:



You could almost call it a conspiracy and stuff 😟
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