PMoreno349
Thursday, May 5, 2005 8:29:00 AM
What I am interested in is what you think is going to happen when China uses force in the matter of Taiwan.

They concern me as an economic threat (as I contemplate the 65 piece drill bit set at Costco for $35), but what about the military threat, and does thier claim to Taiwan have any legitimacy?

usahog
Thursday, May 5, 2005 8:40:00 AM
"does thier claim to Taiwan have any legitimacy?"

About as much as Iraq had to Kuwait...

I know what you mean about the cheap goods... and it is our dumb arses allowing this to happen right here in the US of A...

same goes for the imigration laws and business's offered for foreigners, look at the lax tax laws allowed to them to come over open up numerious business's and not have to pay taxes for what the first ten years? or get tax breaks?? this money's made ships right back over to family's in their homeland.. is it wrong?? nope not to them because their in business... but it is wrong to the American people who have so many tight ass stingent policy's when they try to open up a business of their own here in their own lands... and then get taxed to death... Our nations leadership needs to get back on track with the American People who put them in office.. this is what Adroomi and others have been saying for along time... but without people making their voices heard to their elected officials... The East of the Beltway (I-495) Boys have been living in their own world and doing for themselves for way to long!!!!

Hog

PMoreno349
Monday, May 9, 2005 9:20:00 AM
I see adroomi is back on the board. I was hoping to get his take on this.

Adroomi, if you wouldn't mind dropping me an e-mail, I would like to chat off line.

morenopo03 at

yahoo dot com

adroomi
Monday, May 9, 2005 6:30:00 PM
Hog,

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your statement about China and Taiwan. You cannot compare them to Iraq and Kuwait. That is nonsense.

China owns Taiwan, and up until 50 years ago, Taiwan (Formosa) was part of mainland China. HK and China successfully transitioned back together and so will Taiwan and China. It is not our business. Why are we involved? Well, let me explain:

Our reasoning to keep China and Taiwan is very new. It is not that we are trying to respect and defend the status of this state (yes, state) for their benefit, but rather for our own. The only reason our administration is attempting to block the PRC from gaining Taiwan back is to protect OUR interests in the region. It is purely self serving (as usual) and just about every country in Asia disagrees with us for it.

Please realize that up until just 5 years ago, we actually PUSHED Taiwan to re-join China. Yes, that's correct, we negotiated in favor of China. Why? We wanted trade with them. Now why are we flipping our stance........? Well, as I've said before, China is now a member of the WTO.

For the most part, the current problems faced by Taiwan and China began in 1972. During the first phase of relations between the United States and the Mainland, the U.S. talked out of both sides of its mouth. It acknowledged the PRC position -- that there is but one China and Taiwan was part of China. Then when the United States established diplomatic relations with China in 1979, the U.S. recognized that the "PRC was the sole government of China." However, at that time, the U.S. also agreed that Taiwan was not part of mainland China, merely that the PRC was the legitimate government of China. The U.S. was having it both ways, saving mainland Chinese face, yet not giving the PRC the upper hand and with it permission to invade Taiwan. Although Taiwan existed and had territorial integrity its government was not really recognized by the world -- nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

But under Clinton, all that changed and the mainland Chinese definition of "one China," became the U.S. interpretation. In 1994, the Clinton Administration sought to exclude Taiwan from international organizations and blocked Taiwanese leaders from entering the U.S. The attitude was rather like having a brother you are ashamed of, but support in one way or another -- while not letting him into your house or admitting him into your circle of friends. In 1998, President Clinton chose to declare that "China's policy towards Taiwan was now the policy of the United States." Analysts call it Clinton' three no's:

no independence, no two Chinas, no membership in state-based international organizations. Please read those three No's again....they're important. That was the USA's stance just 7 years ago.

Independent minded Taiwan had been heartened by the largely successful and peaceful transition of Hong Kong over to the PRC in 1997. Taiwanese businessmen have huge investments in Hong Kong and count on a viable and free economy in the former Crown Colony. However, in recent months, and in its ham-handed way, Beijing decided to stir the pot and interfere with Hong Kong's independent judiciary. At that point Taiwan felt threatened and vulnerable; pointing out to the world that there were two Chinas. President Lee used the timing of the problematic relations between the U.S. and Beijing as the appropriate geopolitical moment to state what all Taiwanese have believed for years - Taiwan is a separate state.

After Lee made his "state to state" reference in the press interview, the President of China, Jiang Zemin appealed to Clinton to rein in the Taiwanese. Ever willing to comply with PRC requests, Clinton's National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, canceled a planned trip by mid-level defense officials to Taiwan.

Some in the Clinton camp wanted to cancel all visits by U.S. officials to Taiwan, as well as shipments of spare military parts. However, due to the Clinton Administration's scandals regarding questionable Chinese campaign contributions, and its malfeasance in regard to the theft or sale of strategic technological secrets to the Chinese, they were forced to walk a tightrope vis a vis China and Taiwan. The administration can't afford to appear too close to the PRC lest Congress start issuing subpoenas and actually take the Clinton Justice Department to court over Chinagate

Now we are nervous about what "one China" will do to us. The Bush administration is up to the USA's usual tactics and is attempting to sanction China and sales of US goods to China. This is really p*ssing a lot of folks off. There are MAJOR US companies that are operating in China now (the Great Wal-Mart for one) that are being adversly affected by this. They are currently importing their goods through other nations, but the US DOD and State Dept is considering actions against Wal-Mart and any company that sells to China.

We are not making friends this way. We pump money into a country to suit our needs, then backpeddle and flip the stance a day later to suit our needs again.

Taiwan is a state, not a country. It is a part of China, it always has been and will once again be a part of China. Unfortunately the Nuclear weapons and high-tech fighters/equipment that we sold to Taiwan in the past decade will also become China's.

One day we will learn to quit meddling in other's affairs. Our policies of sanctions and embargos are making the world angry (now that the world is flat instead of round, and they can SEE it), and we will soon be the outcasts.

rugrunner
Monday, May 9, 2005 9:54:00 PM
adroomi, A couple of quick points.

1.You say our interest is self serving, duh. We as Americans should be looking out for... anyone..anyone.... AMERICA!

2.I am completly taken aback by the idea that only five years ago(Clinton was Pres.) we were on China's side. Clinton gave them exemptions to his assault weapons ban and the go ahead for missle tech. from Loral(sp?) did he not. And all he got was a piss load of $$ from alot of monks....HMMMMMM

adroomi
Monday, May 9, 2005 10:10:00 PM
Rug,

I think we are on the same sheet here. However, when Clinton was "on China's side" do you really think he was doing it for the benefit of "Americans?" Who did all of that money go to? You and I? His election campaign? You do remember Chinagate right?

When we "look out for Americans" as you state in point number one, but yet do it in the fashion that we crap all over the others, sooner or later we get crapped on as well.

As I mentioned above, the world is no longer round....it is flat. Flat as an LCD screen in front of you and I both. This is why you and I are talking "face to face" right now, regardless that I am sitting on a boat in the gulf of Thailand, and you are somewhere 7000 miles away. Due to this "flatness" we will no longer be able to get away with the things we do to others for our own benefit.

When we were kids we used to say "eat that food, there are people in China starving." we also used to think we could dig a hole to reach China.

Chinese kids didn't have radio and TV, or even magazines. They're parents used to tell them to behave or else the "Americans will come and take them away." This was a scary thought to Chinese kids. The slang term for American in Mandarin is "Yang Gua suh." It means "white person that is never seen." This can also translate to "ghost." Another term from long ago is "Loh gua mon." The second one means literally "long hair on body." This is in reference to our body hair.

So, when little Chinese kids thought of Americans they envisioned ghosts with really long hair all over their bodies........monsters! The kids feared us and that was the end of it.

Now with the opening up of the internet and the flattening of the world, they know who we are, and that we are not monsters and they do business with us. We however don't know who they are, our kids still think they are little people starving to death in some million mile away place.

Question: Do you think Chinese kids today know more about America and it's way of doing business, or do you think American kids know more about China?

Why is this important? In 20 years, these kids will be the Presidents and CEO's of global corporations. Who do you think will be the workers? Us or them?

Yeah, I'm rambling now.......and I promised to get off of this China thing.

rugrunner
Monday, May 9, 2005 10:24:00 PM
droomi,(do ya mind if I call ya droomi??) As the siad in ghost busters" don't mix the streams... it would be bad....." I never conected Clinton being on China's side and doing what was best for America. I said if we do something for us...duh. I pionted out Clinton in reference to the 5 years ago thing. As to the crapping on others thing. It remindes me of a girl I once knew. She got mad at something I said. She hit me. She then said"you can't hit me, I'm a girl" Just becouse we are bigger, does'nt mean we have to not hit her so to speak. I did by the way.... Always fun, Bill

P.S. LCD in front of us both my $ss. When you send me one we'll both have one. I am a simple tile setter trying to keep shoes on my kids feet......Not some international bigshot like you!! LOL

adroomi
Monday, May 9, 2005 10:33:00 PM
Rug,

I'm not a big shot by far. I'm international yes, but that's by choice and luck. My LCD is a laptop screen.

Tile setter, eh? When I get back home I'll post a couple photos of the floors two rooms in my house. I think you'll be proud. I had a guy do them a few years back. Multicolored, bright, and downright awesome. He did them for free (well sort of). We worked a deal out. They're really cool. I think you'll like them. Sort of a cartoon thing.

rugrunner
Monday, May 9, 2005 10:47:00 PM
droomi, (i now assume I can cal you that...) I was giving you the needle about being a big shot. Remember what you said about oppinion and fact? I'm here to help you keep them seperate! LOL As to the tile, I do alot of high end stuff. I just did a cool star in my porch. If I can talk the warden(Mrs. Rug) into helping me, I'll post it. I enjoy the back and forth with you, but someone once told me to be careful of who I play with... Be good,Bill
CWFoster
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:32:00 AM
"She got mad at something I said. She hit me. She then said"you can't hit me, I'm a girl" Just becouse we are bigger, does'nt mean we have to not hit her so to speak."

AHEM, remember Korea? China threw in a limited number of troops and damn near threw us and the rest of the U.N contingent right off the penninsula! In talks between Stalin and Mao, Stalin pointed out that a single nuke could kill a million Chinese, and Mao replied "a million less to feed!" Mao told Stalin that the USSR could not manufacture bullets fast enough to kill them all. China is the ONLY nation in the world with a standing army of one million active duty members. and every fifth person in the entire world is chinese! So the statement that we are bigger does NOT apply!

rugrunner
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:54:00 AM
CW, read the post agian. IN response to androomi saying"we crap all over the others, sooner or later we get crapped on as well" he was talking about the world not china(or that was how i took it). And we are bigger then most. the point I was trying to make was if france thinks doing was is good for us is crapping on them that's too bad sometimes.
adroomi
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:59:00 AM
CW,

That is the scariest thought I could ever imagine. I do not even want to consider what would happen if we EVER did something so stupid and suicidal. For the first time in 200 years we would see battle on US soil, and the casualty count of civilians would be in the millions.

Let's get off of that subject.....that's way scary.

Steve*R
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:07:00 AM
PMoreno wrote: "What I am interested in is what you think is going to happen when China uses force in the matter of Taiwan."

Your question presumes that force will ultimately be used, and that premise really isn't valid. Mainland China's best interest is currently served by maintaining a status quo in its relationship to Taiwan. It's a virtually identical situation to what has transpired in Hong Kong. Hong Kong was literally an independent principality; a free city state; a free enterprise zone. When it transitioned to Mainland Chinese control, what really changed in Hong Kong?

Nothing.

The Mainland Chinese have become one of the U.S.'s largest volume trading partners and a similar situation exists for them in their relations with Western Europe. There is no reasonable rationale for the Chinese leaders to jeopordize their nation's rapid economic growth by engaging in foreign relations that would inhibite their domestic industrial and commercial growth. Ultimately, Mainland China and Taiwan will negotiate trading pacts that will draw the countries closer together. They will exist side by side.

RICKAMAVEN
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:22:00 AM
PMoreno349

if you lived near me, in so calif, i could take you to a chinese wholesale house where you could get that for about $10.00. i just bought a 24v 1/2" rechargeable variable speed drill for $20.45 and a 14 X 20 canopy for my patio complete with conduit, corners and tarp for $79.00.

costco's mark up is fair for consumers because they are a fair store. buying it direct from the wholesaler cuts the cost to half or 1/3.

http://ajtools.com/ 

RICKAMAVEN
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:40:00 AM
last night i chated with one of my clients who is an entrepreneur.

he sells chinese mfg items to stores other then wall-mart. if you are in a drug store and see these interesting gismos, dolls that talk, i have a christmas monkey that is sensitive to someone walking in front of it and it will say merryy christmas, these 1,000,000 candle power rechargeable flashlights, and lots of other inexpensive items that the stores have to sell, they are possibly merchandise that he imports from china.

i asked him specifically about the cheap labor. he said the factory workers earn about $15.00 to $30.00 per week, as best he could determine. i asked him about food and cost of an apartment and he told me the factories pay for their room and board and that the money they make is sufficent to provide for their families living at home where they go each time they have a day or two off.

from what i can gather, what we consider cheep money for services relates to what money can buy you where you live.

when i bought the $600,000,00 house i am living, for $32,500.00 in 1969 i was was taking home less then a $1,000.00 a month.

my car payment was under $90.00 a month and food for the four of us was about $60.00 a week.

yesterday toby came back from the grocery store with $150.00 worth of groceries that i carried in with one trip and an extra bag for the second trip so i could have my hand free to lock the car.

saki said in "tea house of the august moon" pornography is a question of geography and apparently so are wages.

PMoreno349
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:19:00 PM
Adroomi, Thanks for the post, that was very enlightening.

Steve, I actually am thinking like you, that it will never come to use of force, but, with Chinese officials using that kind of rhetoric in public lately, it is hard not to think about it, especially considering, like Adroomi says, it is a scary thought.

Rick, I hear you on the economics.