I feel that the Bush administration has done a fine job in the middle east, except for 1 thing I think is wrong.
This administration keeps tellin Israeli leaders not to retaliate against the Palestinian terrorism. How many of these attacks are acceptable? None in my opinion. Arrafat must be removed from his leadership position.

The US wouldnt put up with these attacks, why should Israel? Just my opinion.
Mag

God, will the Middle East ever NOT be a ****hole of war, looting, suicide bombing, terrorism, etc.?

I agree, I think Arafat needs to be taken out of the leadership. He's been given dozens of opportunities for peace from Israel...and he never seems to get these terrorist organizations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad under control long enough for any diplomatic events to happen. I don't quite see how he has power over these groups which are seperate entities from the Palestinian Authority, but apparently everyone in world politics thinks he does have enough sway over them to make them stop.

I also think Israel needs another prime minister as well. Ariel Sharon was kicking the **** outta Palestinians in Lebanon back in the 70's...I don't think he really wants peace either.

I think both countries need to realize it isn't one or the other...but that it's BOTH of their faults for all this ****.

1.) Israel took that land. Sure, you can argue that there really was no Palestine at the time, that it was merely carved out of pieces of Transjordan, Syria, and Egypt, but people still lived there and were still uprooted. You can argue the Israelis deserved that land after the Holocaust, and yes the Holocaust was probably the worst tradedy in history, but two wrongs don't make a right.

2.) How can Palestinians expect to win the sympathy and support of any outside countries when, instead of using campaigns of civil disobedience, peaceful protest, and other non-violent methods (methods proven by such people as Gandhi in India and Martin Luther King here, among others, to be effective in gaining liberty and recognition for one's cause), they decide to bomb buses, pizzerias, malls, streets, and other civilian targets. It's cowardly and wrong...and where does it get the Palestinian cause? Nowhere except on the bad end of an Israeli tank turret. Violence begets violence, not freedom.

I Vote; attack. Many say that Israel was a terrorism sponser going back to (what 48?) when they blew up the bus out side King David something. Honestly I just do not remember the exact name but the target was a military target, with military personel inside. Blowing up a bus, injuring some innocent bystanders is a terrorist act, in its way. The one thing that people keep forgetting in this country and around the world is intent. What was Israel's intent? To distroy a military target. I ask you; what is the palesinian's intent when he explodes inside a bus full of school children? Or walks into a crowded pizza parlor and does the same thing? These victims were innocent. They intended to kill innicent people. That makes them monsters. The fued between Israel and Palestine will most likely never end uless one side is no longer. There is a clear good/evil. If it comes down to one, God will it be Israel. Again, I vote attack. As Nick Dipalo said in Tough crowd the other night, "Then roadmap for peace in the middle east begins at Arifat's headstone. You want peace? There will be a little red x on his headstone that says start here!!" He is a cancer and contributes nothing to this world, kill him and hope it influences 14 year old Arab's to read a book instead of stapping on a suicide belt in he name of Alah. I say, Alah, God, Buddah, Mohammad, whoever, whatever, is out there, they do not want kids killing themselves for any reason. But it won't stop until somthing is done to stop it. We as a nation, the most powerful in the world, parent to Israel, can actually do nothing and still it will stop. But that is what we need to do, nothing. When Israel defends herself by killing members of Hamas, do nothing. Don't condem, instead remember how we felt that Sept. Morning when war was brought to us. Israel wants nothing more than to live in peace. Palistine wants nothing more than to kill all Israelis, oh and Americans too while we are at it. I say bring it to them. Don't give them the chance. Let Israel do what needs to be done and this world will be a better place. Too long, sorry, but this is an issue that is very important to me. We try to say that we as Americans and America are the good guys. Why do we complain when we find no WMD in Iraq? How can anyone say that the war was not jusified? Millions of people are saved now. Sadam was a brutal tyrant that killed innocent people. His sons Raped Women on the street and executed them "because they are now un-pure, and no man will have them." If that is not justification enough for you than I say damn you. You and your American guilt, because that can be he only reason you do ot see reason. Americans are still guilty about our own past and too many of us traspose those feeling onto goups like the palestinians, the under-dogs, jus trying to survive, and win thier freedom. Terrorism is NEVER justified. Not for any reason. Palestine will not stop killing until they are made to stop, because they have no other reason for living. Its tragic but true. Like any virus, they need to be wiped out. No matter what the Leftist media trys to scew it, Islam is a violent religion. I preaches war and he distruction of the infidels. Infidel= Israel and America. I say there is no room for war mongering in this world, stop them before they do something to stop us. Stop us from living our lives. MK

I vote STAY! Oh wait, are we talking about Arafat? Then I change my vote, I vote GO!

In this sort of conflict, somebody needs to stop the violence. Israel is the ruling force, so has the responsibility to initiate cessation of conflict. Hard to do? Yes. Necessary? Yes. Plus, let us not forget that Israel has killed MANY more in this conflict. We just hear more about Israeli deaths.

Arafat is not the leader of the P.A., so he has in fact withdrawn from power. Does he wield power from behind the scenes? Of course. All former leaders do, from Arafat to Bush Sr.

This I found puzzling, and I'm curious about thoughts on it:

"How can Palestinians expect to win the sympathy and support of any outside countries when, instead of using campaigns of civil disobedience, peaceful protest, and other non-violent methods (methods proven by such people as Gandhi in India and Martin Luther King here, among others, to be effective in gaining liberty and recognition for one's cause), they decide to bomb buses, pizzerias, malls, streets, and other civilian targets. It's cowardly and wrong...and where does it get the Palestinian cause? Nowhere except on the bad end of an Israeli tank turret. Violence begets violence, not freedom."

Why would we hold others to this, but not ourselves? Do as we say, not as we do? The U.S. seems convinced that violence is the only way to remove violent oppressors...let's not mince words here: Israel is a violent oppressor of the people of Palestine. We want them to practice non-violence, yet we cheer 'Shock and Awe' in our own name on the television? Some consistency would be nice here!

For my 2cts, I think this is a civil war that just needs to be fought out. Yes, we should try to bring about peace and end violence, but there is little common ground between parties in this conflict. It is a battle for the identity of a nation. Sometimes people just have to bleed conflict out of each other to achieve it. I wish with all my heart that that wasn't true. But both sides have legitimate claims. You can't dispute that. Compromise in politics is usually the result of blood, not good hearts. That's a truism I wish I didn't know about the world.

John

John

I feel that the majority of the Palistinians and Israeli's want peace. However the extremists on both sides do not. They will only settle for the complete distruction of the other side and nothing else will do.
As a result,a total and complete peace will never come. X

What about Israel being God's chosen people?

(Bracing myself....)

So much for stayin' out of the politicals, eh Mag? I know, you couldn't help yourself. This one seems pretty benign, so far.

I don't think there is an easy answer. My personal feeling is that the Palistinians, no matter what they may say will not rest until the Zionists are gone. I'd like to think that if they had their own state, they would be satisfied, but I think that's just a pipe dream, or a cigar dream. Hmmm, sounds good, another excuse to smoke and dream.

On a micro level, neither I, nor my family will be visiting the Middle East any time soon.

sketcha, I'm going to be different this time around.

I've decided that I will bring up a subject, give my opinion, then just read others opinions. I'm not going to try and dispute or change others opinions. I'll just read them and except the fact that there are different views out there. No more arguments over others views...peace man...

Mag

Billy, you are correct the Israilies are Gods chosin people... how many Nations so small, could whip the **** out of 7 other Nations (after being Attacked) in 6 days and rest on the 7th?

All the Lands over in that region are deselute (desert) and not good for anything Accept giving Up Oil..for them to Prosper in Riches... Accept Isreal.. who was givin their land back after WW1 or was it WW2 my mind skips me at this moment.. and from the land they Inherited back... Made it Grow and Flurish with their own Sewn Oats!!! this along with being the Infedels, Born through the Ritious Son to the Thrown...
their will always be turmoil in the region... and now that their are many more Infedels (US Soldiers) in the Lands even more Turmoil and Unrest awaits...It will be when The US decides to use the Revenues of the Oil Producing Nation to rebuild Iraq and help with the War costs that Other Nations will begin their Turmoils.. Shall We prepair the Battle Grounds?? I think the roads have already been laid out for us 10s of 1000s a years back... We are living in a time that is Very Interesting indeed...

Lets say you.. have a family of 4 and two are boy's... from Birth you raise these boys to be Suicide bombers in the name of their God... Could you as Civilized as Our Nation is... Do this to your own Children?
what the fighting in this land is just about that.. it is very deep rooted and no laws to be writen will ever be followed until the land is rid of the Infedels....

just my 2 cents
Hog

I know this is not the right way to think about it, so it's good for everyone that I don't have/get to make the decisions regarding it...but to hell with right and wrong...and "rights"...there hasn't been anything "right" with this situation for centuries much less since '48. Therefore, I say to hell with the "right"/just/ethical way of solving the problem.

On the one hand, American wants to play mom/dad/brother to the situation. If we are going to parent this thing, then get over there and spank some ass!

On the other hand, we must keep appearances of a diplomatic third party. No need to further the potential of a full-scale "official" Islam vs. America war. Because of course, we have to be Israel's friends...not because they are more right than the Palestinians...but because we can't overcome the belief that Israel is still God's chosen people and we damn well better be on their side so God will "continue to be on ours."

Sorry...done got theological on ya'll. But then again...I'm a much better theologian than a politician as many can already see.

I'm done.

Cool, Mag.

It's too bad that it's come to this, though. I enjoy a good, heated debate MORE than the next guy. With an open mind, I have learned much from opposing views. I would'nt want you to refrain from rebuttal if you feel you have a valid point as long as it doesn't get personal. However, from what I've seen, I would suggest that you and JD abstain from dialog whenever possible, at least for the time being.

I do applaud your new efforts. Take it slow, feel it out and above all, have fun.

I vote we give Arafat a bath.....that will be a fate worse than death for him.

Does anyone remember the Palestinian Liberation Organization????? How about it's role in promoting terrorism, in the 1970's -1980's?????? Does anyone remember who was the leader, and spokesman for the PLO during that time????? Arafat. Why isn't he already dead????? Go Figure.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)

I am amazed at how many experts there are on the board. It's like you've all been to Israel. Murder is Murder. Terrorists should be rid of. But don't judge a people. North America is supposed to be a role model for peace, freedom and humility. I have Palestinian friends who are friends with Jews. I also know that the peace loving Palestinians who depend on the Jews for work are considered dirt from the time they are born. How soon do we forget the American Revolution? There were atrocities. How soon do we forget the Civil Rights movement? I personally believe in Chinese justice for all terrorists. The reason the conflict will never end is the same reason everyone here chooses to pick one side. The side chosen by western media. I in no way condone the terrorists. Every time I see the innosent hurt, I want revenge. But what about all the innocent?

I agree, remove the regime. Don't judge the people.

Water torture?

john john

"Israel is the ruling force, so has the responsibility to initiate cessation of conflict." no they are not.

40 odd years ago the palasinians were given the right of self government. they elected arafat, a terrorist gangster as their leader in an election controlled by his thugs. several billion dollars has been handed over to the palastinian leadership and arafat has several billion dollars hidden all over the world and "his" people have ****.

in no geography book in the palastine classrooms show israel. i have seen the sesame street type tv the children ar subjected to. they are not taught reading and writing as are sesame street does, they are indoctrinated into wanting to become suicide murders, instead of doctors, engineers, teachers, or anything else of value. arafat has had 40 years to raise his army of "manchurian candidates", removing him won't stop the violence, they are acting on their indocrinations.

rabbi kahane said years ago, we can't live side by side with these animals, get them out of our midst. send them to any arab country that wants them. he was assasinated, and his son and grand daughter were murdered a few years ago.

what would you propose if you lived in a huge apartment complex that had a group of blue men living in almost 40 % of the apartments and every so often one of them would go visit a neighbor with a back pack on, blow his neighbors to pieces along with himself because he wanted to get to blue heaven.

the first time would surprise the hell out of every one. after about 5 of these, you discover they want to do this to all their neighbors.

**** em, apartment after apartment, put each family in a taxi with all their belongings, give them money for a new apartment, and get them the hell away before they kill your family.

one by one in every arab town these animals should be put on a bus, given some money to start a new life, and take them to any arab country they want. remember they live in squalor, they have no jobs, they have no education, they should be given the chance to start a new life, not to mention preventing them from taking your's.

Wow I think someone hit Ricks Nerve... and to think I thought he never had one LMAO!!!!

Hog

As can easily be seen from all these opposing viewpoints... there just ain't an easy answer to this problem. Israel has had their home in this area for over 3000 or so years. The Palestinians (under different national names) have had their home in this area for over 3000 or so years. The Jewish people have been forced out too many times to count. The Arabic peoples have had the crud kicked out of them and been forced out too many times to count. Before 1949 the Jewish independence movement (Irgun) engaged in its own war of independence (terror) in Palestine against the British authorities and their Palestinian puppets. One ot its most influential leaders was Menachim Begin.

After 1949 you have the creation of the the PLO and Fatah, their military arm headed by none other than Yasser Arafat. He was over the organization when the Black September Group (under Fatah sponsorship) murdered the Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics. Arafat showed no real sign of slowing down his campaign of terror until the Camp David Accords during the tenure of President Jimmy Carter. It is hard to determine whether anything really slowed down or not.

In conclusion, on the one hand, you have a Zionist government who feels they have a God given right to rule the land of Israel (what that means, even Israelis can't agree upon) and, on the other, you have a Muslim people who feel they have a God given right to rule the land of Palestine (what that means even the Palestinians can't agree upon). Sounds to me like no one knows what they want or what they're willing to give up to get it. I firmly believe that the majority of the citizens on both sides want peace... but then again, what is the real definition of peace? I sure don't know.

5764 Jewish years. Jews were a settled people long before the nomadic followers of Muhammad came into the picture. Just as the early teachings and the teachings of today, Jews do not hold it against anyone who chooses to believe in a different G_d or any other diety. They have always shared the land. Unfortunately it is those religions and Governments who see fit to convert those who do not believe like they do. Many (or most) of those entities have been extreme in their conversions. Most prefer to kill you if you don't believe as they do or convert to their ways. Jews as are Jews in their State of Israel would prefer to not have to fight and would prefer to be left alone to live in harmony. It has worked in the past, but somewhere a thousand or so years ago, many of the non-Jews have split into radical groups far apart form their original beliefs. Muslims do not believe in killing for that sake of killing non Muslims. But extreme groups do. Christains believe in peace, but there are some extremists among their ranks (thanks you Crusades). You don't see Hindus or Buddhists partaking in such secular killing (well...not often).

In short. The only thing that will solve the problem is elimination of the extremists. But they are like cockroaches. You never get rid of all of them. Maybe in my life time or my kids life time, peace and harmony will again prevail. If it weren't for the destabilization caused by the Roman Empire, everything would be just fine.