Thom,

I guess your right, and I'm guilty of that. I just feel that the end result was justified... we have removed a man responsible for hundreds of thousands of human deaths. We have removed a man who has tortured, starved and raped. Even if WMD isn't found, (I'm sure we eventually will,) I'm glad we're there.

Funny... if someone in America gets in a fight at a bar, we jail them. But if someone kills 1000,000+ people in a different country we can't justify his removal from power.

Wait just a minute. This is not about support for war or troops (if it be known I support both), this is about reasons for war and why we are there currently. The question is how many times can you have a willing disbelief of reality and accept new excuses for unfound reasons?
OK, lets see what I said, and what I was responding to.

Face it, usahog, you've been bent over in front of the president for a long time on the Iraq war (I'm guessing you've supported from the begining?), and now, deep down, you know it was a lie. Your quote don't say anything. Your quote says that the weapons cashes (sp?) are big. Yeah, we know that.
I think we've been round and round with the personal insults enough times to establish that that is the fastest way to lose any respect on here. I was taking exception to anybody telling one of my (not BOTL) BROTHERS IN ARMS that he's anybody's dupe or pouge!

Get over it? If I WERE a policymaker, we'ld have gone to war eight years ago, before Congress recended the original declaration of war, that was cut short by the terms of a cease fire that the other side NEVER LIVED UP TO THEIR END OF! WMD? Terrorist links? You wouldn't accept any evidence that you were wrong if it was a ten gallon enema of GBX, you pompous ass! If I go back there and get shot at, at least I can shoot back, unlike the 200 Marines in Beruit, the personnel in Khobar Towers, the seventeen killed on the USS Cole, The injured on the USS Samuel B. Roberts, I could name another half dozen attacks on our people that drew no attention other than throwing a dozen Tomahawks at the suspected location of UBL, or at AAA radar sites in Iraq. I'm just sorry that the bast***ds had to kill 3000 of our people on our own soil before people woke up, and now they are almost comatose again! WMD? Terrorists? You are more interested in ridiculing the President than any facts, so YOU get over it!

I swear, some of you just are not happy unless you are whining about something. At least us conservatives made valid complaints about Clinton when he was in office.

You liberals are given all the evidence you need but you just refuse to see it.

You need to familiarize yourselves with the term “perceived threat.” Yes, that’s right, perceived threat is a term commonly used by Military as well as police officers. It is a perfectly legal and legitimate defense to use deadly force.

Fact: Saddam openly researched, developed and manufactured WMD’s.
Fact: Saddam used WMD’s on several occasions within the past 10 years.
Fact: Saddam denied U.N. inspectors access to his WMD facilities on several occasions.
Fact: Saddam was fully warned to comply with inspectors prior to the war.
Fact: Saddam was fully warned of the consequences if he failed to comply with U.N.
Fact: Saddam counted on his “perceived threat” to defend him against our invasion.

Bottom line, we were perfectly justified to invade Iraq as we did. In the face of a threat, either real, or a perceived threat perpetuated by Saddam, we have the right to remove you from power and take over your country.

The police deal with perceived threats with deadly force all the time. If a person goes into a convenience store claiming to have a gun and instructs the teller to hand over the money while motioning to something protruding inside of his jacket pocket, that’s a perceived threat. The teller has no idea if it is a gun or a comb. If the police show up on the scene they are going to meet him with guns drawn. If the perpetrator fails to draw his hand from his pocket and reveal it is only a comb then he will be met with deadly force.
The police will be justified in doing so. You also wouldn’t hear public outcry after the fact of people saying “where was the gun?” Would you.

For anyone to see it any other way shows an obvious lacking in their ability to achieve intelligent thought.

I have a friend, Major Louis Hernandez, is a support company currently in Tikrit. He says that there are 145 weapons storage sights in Iraq, some the size of Manhattan. We have inspected, if I remember his numbers 11 (could be 3 but I think 11). This is very dangerous and time consuming work. In order to believe Saddam didn't have them you have to believe that every intelligence agency in the world, including th Russians, French and German's were wrong. Additionaly, because we know we used them he had them at some point, that he secretly got rid of them and hid that fact, despite the fact that the sanctions were costing him hundards of billions of dollars, and ultimately probably his life.

I want to make my position clear. I'm for the troops, I was for the war. My issue here is that I feel like I'm being jerked around and that I'm being treated like I have no memory. I remember very clearly what the President and his aides were saying and the message they were conveying as reasons for war as well as you. However the message keeps changing and I keep thinking what happened to WMD? That was pounded into my head. WMD, WMD, WMD. Then it went to Iraqi liberation, then to fighting terrorists. Etc. And now its "dozens of weapons of mass destruction-related program activities..." All of which may be legitimate, but mostly I feel like I'm being used.

Let me also say that I have a vested interest in what goes on in Iraq. I have a nephew and a brother in-law who are both in the National Guard who currently in Iraq and are serving their county way more than they ever expected. Just ask my sisters.

I really think GTO is right mhpd is Jdrabinski... Always wanted to be a cop growing up John?? now the roll playing Identity crisis here??

I've pointed out Numerious times and so has others why we went into Iraq.. and to correct the Years... it was 12 long years to little to late... how many Billions did we spend Babysitting Saddam??? 365 days a years for 12 years??? I know myself at E-6 pay and all the other intitelments while deployed I had some healthy paychecks... so figure an average salary in the military across the board of lets say an E-3 and one base housed 500 personell.. another base 2000 and so on with a total counting ships /Aircraft Carriers with 5000 personell.. and what it takes for them to function 365 days a year for 12 years... How many Billions??? Ok I rest my Case.. it was CHEAPER TO TAKE THE SOB OUT... and Again I say it was 12 years to late!!!!!!!

I have no problem leaving my family behind and putting my life on the line for my Country and my Commander and Chief.. what I do have a problem with is trying to get over the arrogent **** who look down on the military men and women like the one posting/posing as mhpd.. a police officer you say?? I really find this hard to believe...most police officers I have met... and that has been 1000's, really have a different outlooks than the posts I see coming from this mhpd... if in fact you are a police officer you must Drive a Desk??? never had the beatcop or been in a real confrontation???

just my observations...

Hog

Thom, with your memory.. do you ever remember hearing about Khamanshi??? (sp) in 1991 just after gulf war 1 ended??

Hog

mhpd is mhpd. Not somebody else. Sorry if I disappoint! lmao!

The president has changed his justification. And you don't care? He's being slippery with the facts. We didn't go in to topple a dictator because he's a bad guy. There are a lot of bad dicators out there. Are we going to topple all of them? You need to answer that.

usahog, how dare you insult me. I put my ass on the line day in, day out to protect folks like you. I don't drive a desk. I deserve respect. You don't know many cops, obviously. We're union, we're blue collar, and we know this president is against us. All rhetoric aside. He's for the rich. SImple.

How dare HE insult YOU?????
I believe YOU were the one who said "...usahog, you've been bent over in front of the president for a long time..."
Now you have the unmitigated GALL to complain that HE is INSULTING YOU!!!

WHO the F**K do you think you ARE?

mhpd.. this board has a policy about foul language.. did you forget your statement just to me above in this same thread??? and I believe the word I used was Frickin.. LMAO!!!!

glad to see I can strike a nerve!!! woke ya up a bit eh???

Now that your Awake.. yes I do in fact know probably close to 1000 cops... and many firemen and 10s of thousands Military members across the globe!!!

the fact is you strike out at others with insults but yet again are ready to jump to correct anyone Insulting or cursing?? typing is different but your actions are the same.. if your not jd you must be related.. seperated at birth possibly???

Now back to the real thread.... the WMD's were there.. they will be found and many of them were moved and also many were dumped into the Rivers prior to the US/British Invasion at the start of the war...

take it for what you will... I see an **** hiding behind the fact they cannot stand out/up for themselves so have to bash anything good going on for others... You Protect my Ass??? HaHaHa!!!!

got anymore one liners???

little mr meetermaid give me a.. who sings it??? LMAO!!!!

Hog

LMAO @ CW... don't let him drag ya down to his level of life Bro...

I blew him off like a belching smokering!!!!

Real Cops are being trained as to how to deal with todays Crisis's here on the homefront.. and this guy obviosly is related to Philosophy... living in a fantasy world where we all can get along!!!
John Lennon World

Hog

usahog,

With my memory...? Is that some sort of backhanded insult? If it wasn't, well I took it as one. I have not insulted you sir, and I've been nothing but genuine and have stated my case as a gentleman and I expect the same in return.

None of my relatives on this board! They all hate my cigars...lol!

usahog, you should call the president. His administration is in crisis because they havent' found any wmds. But YOU know they are there? LMFAO! If they are there, why did the president withdraw the wmd hunting team? See my link above.

Also, I didn't curse. 'ass' is not a curse word. It's on network television, brother. You used the word a-hole above. Follow the rules.

"I'm being treated like I have no memory. I remember very clearly" with you saying this.. in no way was I directing that as an insult.. and I am sorry you took it that way Thom, I was asking you a clear cut question about remembering the Khamanshi happenings??

that was all I was referring to here...

Hog

Thanks for clearing that up Hog. It's difficult to tell people's inflection behind their writings on the internet, and when a good heated debate starts up, well -

Khamanshi happenings... are you refering to the gassing done by Saddam on his own people? I'm sure you don't mean Kashmiri...

No Khamanshi was an Accadental Detonation of an Iraqi Ammo Dump in 1991 after the end of the Gulf War.. we still had some 500,000 troops in the AOR "Area Of Responceability" not nowing to our own EOD Personell and Demolitions/Engeneers... they blew up an area that was storing Sarin and Mustard Gases... the Plume from the whole event and the way the winds were for that day... after 3 studies done and the last in April of 2001... some 160,000 members of our Military were known to be infected to some degree from fallout...

Saddam Hussain and his Military were notorious for marking and labeling their WMD weapons like Conventional Markings in accordance with Geneva Convention Regulations ... thus our people... the British/french/and all other EOD qualified people to handle such matters were not knowing of this and caused a massive Mistake that today our military members are suffering and dieing from... I can give you the link to the whole Congressional resolve of this insident if you would like??

Hog

You are not a cop, you are not new, and you are a fake drbinski living in a world that does not exist. You think you’re clever?

Oh im going to say im a policeman for over 15 years. And look at me. I don’t think like that you must all hear me speak.


You, in your plastic dreams of nothingness, who will save you. Who will you save?

Who lives in a world of color and flowers running to the other side, who will come for your soul after he spits it out.

I can save you if you look into the future, come follow me to the other side. For that is your only hope.


Dreams of candy and wily wonka who?


Lets all go for the ride.

I do agree with you mphd bush is a terrorist in way. This is an unjust war, and I can’t see any reason for us to be their.

Even if he made wmd he couldn’t get to us. And there is NO PROOF OF WMD. NO PROOF NO PROOF.

We can agree on that my brother mrphd


If a democrat or a liberal for that matter would become our new master then everything would be like it should, no war no hate. The stock market would sky rocket and the US OF A . WiLL be saved.

When I was back there in seminary school, there was a person there Who put forth the proposition That you can petition the Lord with prayer



Petition the lord with prayer




Petition the lord with prayer






YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!

I retract my statement.

Hog,
There was a PBS Frontline show, I think it was about where Iraq stands now, and it had a segment about that incident. It was terrible. The military tried to keep in under wraps for quite a while fearing that they had made the mistake at first but later found just what you said.

If you've got that link, please post it. That could be some interesting reading.

Mhpd

“The president has changed his justification.”

How do you figure? Based on a few comments he made in one speech?

“He's being slippery with the facts. We didn't go in to topple a dictator because he's a bad guy. There are a lot of bad dicators out there. Are we going to topple all of them? You need to answer that.”

Quit trying to pick a fight with usahog and open your eyes. Hog, as well as many others, including myself, HAVE answered this question. You just choose to blindly ignore the truth when it is put in front of you. Case in point:

You have claimed to be a police officer yet you have no comment on my post about the “perceived threat” of Saddam’s WMD’s? I must have missed the post where you claimed to be a cop, but now I think my post should be even more relevant to you, yet you still turn a blind eye to the facts.

“I put my ass on the line day in, day out to protect folks like you. I don't drive a desk. I deserve respect.”

You’re a cop? I seriously doubt it after a statement like that. If you are, you’re a rookie. Just graduate the academy last week?

First of all, let me tell you something. Usahog puts his ass on the line more by 6 a.m. every day than you do in a year! So do I for that matter. Yet has he ever said that he deservers your respect? No, of course he hasn’t. Do you want to know why? Because we do what we do for reasons you could NEVER understand. Any “veteran” cop would know exactly what I mean here. Nobody DESERVES respect. Respect is something that is EARNED! Only a liar or an immature rookie cop would think as you do.

Now see what you’ve done, now I’m pissed!! I hate it when I get pissed!!!! Rant on…………………………

It’s always some candy ass coward like you that goes on and on about how our commander and chief sent us to war for no reason. Candy ass cowards like you would never put YOUR life on the line for the betterment of the WORLD as a whole. Hog and I do it every day. You think your some sort of hero because you claim you’re a cop, yet of all the cops I know NONE of them would want to do what Hog, myself, as well as hundreds of thousands of others military men and women do. You don’t know the meaning of putting your ass on the line. When your shift is over (assuming you are a real cop) you go home to your family. Have you ever laid awake at night, thousands of miles away from your loved ones, worrying that the next vehicle you hear is a nut case with a trunk full of explosives coming to kill you and everyone else in your tent? Have you ever walked down the street of some foreign country trying to sort out who may be a good guy and who wants nothing more than to see you dead? Let me ask you something. How many cops get killed OFF duty? Now take that number and compare it to the military stats. How many cops got killed in the line of duty in your state last year? Now compare that to the military!

They shot me down in the Gulf War, and I’m still here. They shot at me in Bosnia and I’m still here. They tried to blow me up at Khobar Towers and I’m still here. They put six bullets in me in Oman, and I’m still here. I’ve been doing this for twenty long years you little prick, and I’m still here. You, on the other hand, are yesterdays garbage. You’ll stay around and smell up the place for a while, but in the end you’ll be gone. Just like the little coward that you are.


Rant off………………………………....................


Sorry, this little prick just struck the wrong nerve in me. As for any real police officers out there, I totally respect and admire all that you do for us here in the good old USA. Keep it up!

BTW mhpd.

Why don’t you do a little research on a little military operation called “Operation DESERT FOX.” Your Then liberal, adulterous, lying, murdering President Clinton ordered the air drop of more ordinance on Iraq then both President Bush’s did in the first gulf war and the entire air campaign of Operation IRAQI FREEDOM combined. Did you know that? Of course you didn’t. Why? Because your STUPID! But I can see you now, going to Google, spending the rest of the day and night searching out the facts. Good, maybe you and the rest of your sorry ass liberal friends will learn something for a change.
I doubt it though………………………………...................